how do you stay alive while gaining experience?

[lermontov]

how do you stay alive while gaining experience?

A recent discussion amongst friends was how do you allow divers to progress and gain experience without them getting in over their heads? In any group that dives regularly together there will be some that are very experienced and can look after themselves and those that are competent but as yet dont have the mileage to make the right decision when presented with multiple choices.

Im not talking about gear configurations or in water skills but taking on a dive especially a cave or wreck dive that is difficult or very demanding ie squeezes, navigation, silting, current etc.

Some argue that divers should gain experience on their own learning from their own mistakes, others think guiding them on a few dives and then let them loose, yet another view is to let them lead the way and the more experienced follow keeping them from making serious errors

The hard part is gaining experience without getting into mortal danger. Personally i think the certification model has the down side of people thinking theyre ready to take on whatever. I am an advocate of a mentoring role where a more experienced diver looks after an aspirant through the curve when enthusiasm and self belief is higher than experience.

 

[johndiver999]

So your whole premise is that the relevant tech training is so inadequate that people are in mortal danger if they get the certifications? If it is really that bad, are you still supportive of people seeking formal technical training?

 

[MB NZ]

Baby steps and learning from people who know what they are doing. How does the beginner know the difference between someone who knows what they are doing and talks a good game? That's a tricky one. Think I have a pretty accurate ********-o-meter, but maybe that's not the case for everyone.

I did my first drysuit dive without any training, just a few bits and pieces learnt from the internet. I was pretty anxious, but in reality, it was a 5 metre shore dive in clear, calm conditions and relatively warm water. Think I had done about 300 dives at this point and there wasn't a lot that could go seriously wrong. I gradually built on the experience over many years until doing many drysuit dives to 50 metres and beyond. I think this a good example of things going well, but having the ability to plan and organise my own dives made this possible.

 

[SlugLife]

Im not talking about gear configurations or in water skills but taking on a dive especially a cave or wreck dive that is difficult or very demanding ie squeezes, navigation, silting, current etc.

This is perhaps one of those subjects that deserves a lot of nuance. I don't think there's an exact one-size-fits-all answer for the entire scope of this thread.

The "safe" answer is "get training, and then you too can safely do these kinds of dives." Where did this info come from? The answer is usually a mixture of people figuring it out the hard way, and sometimes learning from accidents/incidents other divers experience.

How would one safely dive a silted out cave or wreck without training? Lets say before training was possible? The answer is VERY, VERY, VERY slowly with lots of planning and redundancy. That's how I approach zero-visibility open-water dives I do, lots of redundancy and taking my time and an abundance of caution. (I took a low-visibility class, but it was all about night/dark diving). Whether an average diver has that degree of discipline and patience, especially one who doesn't take readily available training? Probably not.

yet another view is to let them lead the way and the more experienced follow keeping them from making serious errors

If a course does it's job, it should prepare the diver such that they should never be making these serious mistakes, and know their limits. If they skip the course, then you're placing this more experienced diver in an instructor role. Is this other diver actually qualified and prepared to act like an instructor?

 

[gmerick]

AS MB NZ said, baby steps. Have to walk before you run except if you're a 1 year old. Decide I'm ready for something new. Get some training. Dive following an experienced buddy to practice the new thing. Dive with the experienced buddy following and giving advice. Enjoy the new thing. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[VikingDives]

how do you stay alive while gaining experience?

A recent discussion amongst friends was how do you allow divers to progress and gain experience without them getting in over their heads? In any group that dives regularly together there will be some that are very experienced and can look after themselves and those that are competent but as yet dont have the mileage to make the right decision when presented with multiple choices.

How about those that have experience guide those less experienced? I consider myself a novice tech diver, but my experience far outweighs many of my peer instructors and certainly all of my trainees. I learn from those who have greater experience, even if they are teaching me the wrong lessons...

One of my "rules" for my kids is: "Everyone has something to teach you, even if it isn't what you wanted to learn."

In simple terms that means that I might come to you as an instructor hoping you'd teach me to dive trimix, but what you teach me is that there are good trimix instructors (and you aren't one) but I can learn to be a better diver by avoiding you're pitfalls... (and by you I mean the royal YOU, this isn't a personal insult intended to make you into the bad guy).

 

[VikingDives]

how do you stay alive while gaining experience?

A recent discussion amongst friends was how do you allow divers to progress and gain experience without them getting in over their heads? In any group that dives regularly together there will be some that are very experienced and can look after themselves and those that are competent but as yet dont have the mileage to make the right decision when presented with multiple choices.

Im not talking about gear configurations or in water skills but taking on a dive especially a cave or wreck dive that is difficult or very demanding ie squeezes, navigation, silting, current etc.

Some argue that divers should gain experience on their own learning from their own mistakes, others think guiding them on a few dives and then let them loose, yet another view is to let them lead the way and the more experienced follow keeping them from making serious errors

The hard part is gaining experience without getting into mortal danger. Personally i think the certification model has the down side of people thinking theyre ready to take on whatever. I am an advocate of a mentoring role where a more experienced diver looks after an aspirant through the curve when enthusiasm and self belief is higher than experience.

and this is an excellent question!

 

[rjack321]

Im not talking about gear configurations or in water skills but taking on a dive especially a cave or wreck dive that is difficult or very demanding ie squeezes, navigation, silting, current etc.

Why are these recently certified, shiny new card carrying wreck or cave divers squeezing into tight silty spaces far beyond their training?

 

[Bubblesong]

I just read Rick Stanton's book Aquanaut in which he describes his cave diving career that lead up to the Thai Soccer Team rescue. This guy was no Cowboy, he practiced in the pool for some new things even when he was already far beyond everybody else. That kind of attitude, of having to prove himself, meticulously, to himself, rather than caring what anyone else thinks is what helped him get so far.

 

[tomfcrist]

The same way we did it before tech training was a thing.
Incremental steps forward, and a lot of fireside chat discussing oh **** moments. There are no feelings in debriefs.