how do you stay alive while gaining experience?

[Andy in Gap]

Do the dives, dive conservative GFs, realize when you mess up and how to never have those feelings again.

 

[RyanT]

Do the training, then do a bunch of dives at that training level. Doing the same dive at your training level doesn't mean you won't see something new or encounter a challenging situation. For example, last year my buddy and I did a dive on the Doc DeMille at 150'. We both had training at this level and had made this dive before. This time, we were last off the boat on a hot drop. We were late and the current took us over the wreck before we saw it. I saw an anchor line drifting out in the blue and it was clear that was attached to the wreck. I started swimming hard for it. I realized quickly that I could make it, but I would be 100% spent getting there. Also, my buddy wasn't going to make it. I looked and she had already dropped to the sand and was crawling. I knew that was a better option. I dropped to the sand and we both crawled our way onto the wreck, breathing hard. Once there, the current was swirling around and we burned more gas finding a spot to get out of the current. We spent way more gas than planned and cut our dive short. Ascent and drift deco was uneventful. The point is the dive turned out to be harder than we expected. Take home: 1) we were diving within our training 2) dive went different than expected. 3) we were not out of our depth and still learned something.

 

[SlugLife]

How about those that have experience guide those less experienced? I consider myself a novice tech diver, but my experience far outweighs many of my peer instructors and certainly all of my trainees. I learn from those who have greater experience, even if they are teaching me the wrong lessons...

One of my "rules" for my kids is: "Everyone has something to teach you, even if it isn't what you wanted to learn."

In simple terms that means that I might come to you as an instructor hoping you'd teach me to dive trimix, but what you teach me is that there are good trimix instructors (and you aren't one) but I can learn to be a better diver by avoiding you're pitfalls... (and by you I mean the royal YOU, this isn't a personal insult intended to make you into the bad guy).

1. Taking someone into a cave who lacks none of the prerequisite skills, training, or experience, is probably a very bad idea. Similarly, trying to act line a cave-diving instructor when you have none of the qualifications is also a bad idea which could get someone injured or killed.
2. Teaching someone skills like finning technique, managing a line, better buoyancy control, and various other kinds of mentoring is all probably fine presuming the person mentoring is doing so competently. I wish there was far more of that in the dive industry.

The difficulty with this thread, is that it seems to cover a very broad spectrum that includes (1) and (2).

This thread needs some clarification, both for OP and random persons who may stumble into this thread. Are we talking about a non-instructor acting as a mentor and taking a diver with no cave-diving training deep into a cave? (or any similar scenario) That I absolutely cannot endorse. IMO, every diver should be capable of self-rescue, with some kind of moderate problem, at any point in the dive. Even if you are teaching someone, that teaching should be incremental.

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Also, somewhat relevant to this thread: I'm mostly self-taught at SideMount. I spent $200 on the Sidemounting.com materials (which are excellent), found a safe diving location, and then through a LOT of patience and free time, managed to level-up my SideMounting skills to a level of relative competence, confidence, and safety. I don't recommend following in those footsteps to most people, unless you have a lot of self-teaching experience and are fairly good at that. I'm also confident that if I had the budget, traveled, and took the class from the SideMounting.com team, that I would have saved myself significant amounts of time and frustration. I'd probably learn a good amount today if I took his course. If someone else rushes into SideMount without instruction and expecting quick results, I could see a couple areas being potentially dangerous, but that might be a subject for another thread.

The same way we did it before tech training was a thing.
Incremental steps forward, and a lot of fireside chat discussing oh **** moments. There are no feelings in debriefs.

I personally think things can still done this way. Carefully notice "incremental steps."

 

[lermontov]

So your whole premise is that the relevant tech training is so inadequate that people are in mortal danger if they get the certifications? If it is really that bad, are you still supportive of people seeking formal technical training?

The hard part is gaining experience without getting into mortal danger

no my premise is a technical training course is the starting point of gaining experience- id surmise every diving fatality involves people who have certification for what theyre doing

 

[lermontov]

Why are these recently certified, shiny new card carrying wreck or cave divers squeezing into tight silty spaces far beyond their training?

maybe because theyre not seeking outside advise or theres no one giving input post training - ive seen many divers about to launch into a difficult dive with little understanding of what it entails

 

[SlugLife]

id surmise every diving fatality involves people who have certification for what theyre doing

I'm not trying to start a debate, but someone would inevitably point this out. The problem with absolute statements is there are often exceptions. I've certainly read and heard of many instances of divers dying, who were clearly beyond their training. Cave diving being perhaps being a common area, where people with no cave-diving training venture into caves and end up dying.

Personally, I'd probably rephrase the above, because I think your point is mostly about people dying who were trained, not about statistics.

 

[lermontov]

The same way we did it before tech training was a thing.
Incremental steps forward, and a lot of fireside chat discussing oh **** moments. There are no feelings in debriefs.

great that's what Id hope for - our group of friends have agreed to discuss any issues that happen on a dive so we can all improve- we all agree to look out for each other

 

[lermontov]

1. Taking someone into a cave who lacks none of the prerequisite skills, training, or experience, is probably a very bad idea. Similarly, trying to act line a cave-diving instructor when you have none of the qualifications is also a bad idea which could get someone injured or killed.
2. Teaching someone skills like finning technique, managing a line, better buoyancy control, and various other kinds of mentoring is all probably fine presuming the person mentoring is doing so competently. I wish there was far more of that in the dive industry.

not 1)
a step onwards from 2) lets assume they have all the skills associated with a certification

being a mentor/advisor on dive plans, diving with them, offering advise and discussing post dive issues.

to clarify - im asking what is the best way to help a fellow certified diver gain experience and help reduce their exposure to serious misshaps while their going through the experience curve ie passing on your knowledge and experience

 

[inquis]

The difficulty with this thread, is that it seems to cover a very broad spectrum that includes (1) and (2).

My take was the OP was assuming significant training, but how to progress beyond what was certified. For example full cave certified, but going into wiggly tight areas. (There is no "wiggly-tight" certification, so how to progress to that point.)

As others have said, baby steps has to be the answer. And many of them, because things don't go wrong on every dive. Those are the learning opportunities.

 

[Jared0425]

One dive at a time. I see too many people try and get to 100 dives and then hop into the technical world. Some catch on quickly and can do it, but most can't and do get in over their heads. Especially with rebreathers.

I have a feeling that novice students dealing with harsher conditions such as cold water and currents are already better off than those who get certified in the tropics. Technical diving means technical skills being applied all at once. It doesn't have to be deep or deco. It can be hazardous environments or black water. It can be shallow caves or white water diving.

I think technical instructors are the best source for learning and experience. Boards like these on the internet give great advice and ideas for configurations and setup, but you cannot experience what you need to learn from these threads alone. Only you and your team will know how far you can go.