I finally get it: paddles vs splits.

[highdesert]

If a person has never bicycled before, would a beginner doing the circular kick motion think is natural? As opposed to someone who is used to that bicycle motion and started diving, they might automatically go into the bicycle motion because it is easier on their legs and also because they will instinctively do that.

Not trying to be argumentative ... but it seems like you're making a guess at what "might" happen; I just don't think it's the case though.

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

Not trying to be argumentative ... but it seems like you're making a guess at what "might" happen; I just don't think it's the case though.

From my early days of using paddle fins, if one doesn't pay attention to finning technique, my leg will go in the movement of least resistance, which would be the bicycle motion. I don't know if a non-bicycle user will realize that movement is odd, but for cyclists, one wouldn't even realize anything is odd.

 

[ClayJar]

From my early days of using paddle fins, if one doesn't pay attention to finning technique, my leg will go in the movement of least resistance, which would be the bicycle motion. I don't know if a non-bicycle user will realize that movement is odd, but for cyclists, one wouldn't even realize anything is odd.

That's interesting. Even when I was a rank newbie, I had closed the feedback loop in my head. In paddles, you can *feel* when you're moving water, so my brain quickly and naturally associated "least resistance" with "least motive force".

That's actually one of the things you have to unlearn when going from paddles to splits. The resistance to motive force relationship is much less strongly coupled, so if you kick to feel the resistance (the natural way of paddles), you'll be vastly over kicking the splits and think they're junk. If you start over and learn to kick the splits with the mini-flutter, the situation improves dramatically.

I suppose if you're used to a high-cadence, low-force road cycling, you may not have the "resistance begets motive force" algorithm already ingrained. Maybe it's the fact that I stop at all stop signs, wait for lights, etc. in my bike commuting that gave me a head start on paddle fins, but I think that it's really more just taking the right approach to learning. When I have a bicycle-kicking student, I try to get them to feel the force on the top and bottom of their foot as they kick, as that gives them direct feedback to how well they're paddle-finning. It usually works, even. :biggrin:

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

That's interesting. Even when I was a rank newbie, I had closed the feedback loop in my head. In paddles, you can *feel* when you're moving water, so my brain quickly and naturally associated "least resistance" with "least motive force".


I suppose if you're used to a high-cadence, low-force road cycling, you may not have the "resistance begets motive force" algorithm already ingrained. Maybe it's the fact that I stop at all stop signs, wait for lights, etc. in my bike commuting that gave me a head start on paddle fins, but I think that it's really more just taking the right approach to learning. When I have a bicycle-kicking student, I try to get them to feel the force on the top and bottom of their foot as they kick, as that gives them direct feedback to how well they're paddle-finning. It usually works, even. :biggrin:

I guess from cycling, you can either crank the big gear slowly or spin real fast. So when starting off on diving, one could either push hard and slow and usually get cramps, or do fast and light resistance, as long as one was moving forward, one isn't realizing it is wrong. When I was told about the bicycle movement, I though how is that possible, how could I even propel myself forward with that kind of motion. It wasn't until I saw myself in a video that looks like I am pedaling myself forward in which I laughed my ass off and just readjusted my procedure, after a while, I can't even think of pedaling my fins. It is just plain weird now.

 

[highdesert]

Maybe I (incorrectly) presuppose that a diver in training has some idea how to swim ... IMHO, if they don't they had better back up and learn. I can't imagine anyone learning how to swim correctly (and I say "learning" here, not just paddling around with no instruction) using a bicycle kick. In that respect, a diver in training would come to the sport with some idea of how to propel themselves forward, with their legs, in the water. They would likely have learned the flutter kick as the basic mode of conveyance, which just happens to be right handy when diving splits.

And I still maintain that there is nothing natural about carrying a bicycling motion from cycling to diving. We're talking about two radically different movements, in radically different media. But since this thread looks like it's becoming about having the "last word", I'll just say that I've had mine, so carry on!

 

[James R]

I currently have both split and paddle (Tusa split fins of some sort and OMS slipstream). I had the Hollis F1 but the foot pocket on the XL was just a bit small and the XXL way too big. I have also tried the ScubaPro Jet and Turtle fins. That's a lot of freakin' fins! After using the OMS for so long, my spit fins now feel so soft and weird! It's like I have no feel at all for what they are doing. I've thought about selling them many times, but for some reason they are still here in my closet...hmm.

I never understand why people get so bent about what other people dive with. It's like Ford vs Chevy or something.

Just get the fins YOU like, get some spring straps, and spend more time diving them and less freakin' time arguing about them

 

[scubafanatic]

That's weird. I can back kick and do a helicopter turn or one-legged turn in my Tusa X-pert Zooms.
It is easier to do those kicks in a paddle fin, though.

I can easily do all those things with my Apollo Bio fins, so I think the inability to do those 'skills' across different fin types is attributed to 'operator error' not fin design.

 

[TSandM]

I can do all the kicks in split fins, but they're much easier and more effective in paddle fins.

 

[Scott L]

We have current here. Split fins are near useless when the need arises to swim accross and certainly against the Gulfstream's flow...