Innovation in diving

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And the dodge of the questions continues.

I calculated your sac rate, time of penetration, and you think I won't "understand what you are talking about"....

See the problem is I am both TDI Normoxic Trimix certified AND an NSS-CDS Apprentice (Full) Cave Diver, and deco preparation is most certainly a part of the full Cave diving curriculum. To do stage cave or deep cave - the types of runs you claim, you most assuredly do deco.

I identified cave systems, based on your claims, yet you have not said which one you dove that remained at a no deco depth for the 400 meter run you supposedly did. So which cave system allowed you to go over 1200 feet without dipping below 18 meters...

It would clear up the question dispositively.

Funny. I estimate my dive time to be just above 60 minutes (off the top of my head), and you believe it is double that (with all you C-Cards... wow!).

No, I am not going to state the cave I was diving in this forum.

There is a number of reasons for that (i.e. some idiot might want to try the same thing because "somebody else did it" or just to go further with no electronics driven by some weird "competitive diving" motivation...).

Where I dive and how is in my forum and there is reference to caves, topography, depths...

There is also somewhere on youtube (reposted on many cave/tec forums) a video from Patrick (if you do not know who too bad) where we are diving together (max. cave penetration on that dive 850 meters and I had my rebreather with 2 x 18 ltr. sidemount and an Alu80 undermount and a test CO2 Sensor dangling on my right shoulder d-ring... we both used N19 scooters).
 
You said you used 70 bar in two tanks, 140 bar, divided by your sac rate = dive time..... That's straightforward math..... Or maybe I misread the information you supplied?
 
There seems to be a bit of a double standard at work here. When YOU do it it's ok but when someone ELSE does it they're an "idiot"?

-Adrian

There is nothing to be gained by diving without electronics.

I did it because I have an in-depth knowledge of that section of the cave which I carved out for the dive (and on that day I took a calculated risk having forgotten my electronics).

I do not want someone else who does not have that knowledge to do a repeat dive just because I did it.

So, no, I am not giving details out of the dive location and run. Besides, it is immaterial to the discussion.

Awaiting to hear from Tony Chaney!

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 03:39 PM ----------

You said you used 70 bar in two tanks, 140 bar, divided by your sac rate = dive time..... That's straightforward math..... Or maybe I misread the information you supplied?

12 meter average depth.
 
There is nothing to be gained by diving without electronics.

I did it because I have an in-depth knowledge of that section of the cave which I carved out for the dive (and on that day I took a calculated risk having forgotten my electronics).

I do not want someone else who does not have that knowledge to do a repeat dive just because I did it.

So, no, I am not giving details out of the dive location and run. Besides, it is immaterial to the discussion.

Awaiting to hear from Tony Chaney!

Got this from one of your other posts. "The only rules (you) follow".

Seems to me you forgot rule 10.

uqymynu4.jpg


Or is there a rule 11 written on the back of that list that says its OK to break any one of the rules listed by calculating the risk, or maybe as long as you follow most of these rules because each rule kinda sorta, if you explain it right, overrules the other rules validity and makes it OK as long as you drop names?

(Yes, run on sentence intended)





Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 
So,

Now I have a context for the posts... I went into my Cave diver's forum to see if Gian was just being obtuse and argumentative here, but it seems this is his MO everywhere:


His first post on the cave. Diver forum was this:

> Dear Administrator,
> your forum is so poor in quality and the way it is run that I am ceasing to participate in it.
> Gian A. Ameri



It was followed by a fight on a thread about O2 toxicity:

> There is no evidence O2 is narcotic in the 20 to...
> There is no evidence O2 is narcotic in the 20 to 30 meter range.
> People do not narc out in chambers at 2.8 bar pPO2.



Funny, he claims to be a Sheck proponent ( I guess not on learning from past mistakes)

> I am a Sheck disciple.

But what convinced me was him attacking Jim Wyatt, training director of the NSS-CDS:

> Originally Posted by gianaameri
> Was Jim Wyatt part of the "team?" (seems not, so how does he know the Team "plan," assuming they had one.

To which Jim replied:

> > No sir, I was not part of the team nor was I listening to their dive plan being made, they were about 50 yards away from me at > > that point. I spent a couple of hours, maybe more talking with the two survivors of that three man team after the accident.

>> I have relayed to you much of what they told me about the plan and what happened after Carlos toxed. If you do not trust >> >> what I am relaying to you is an accurate account of what I was told, or if you think the survivors are "hiding" something then >> there is nothing more for me to say to you about this accident.

So this guy makes it a habit, and even puts down, one of the longest and most skilled Cave divers who heads the NSS Training committee.... On the largest Cave Diving forum....

No shock that he does the same here...

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 03:58 PM ----------

Got this from one of your other posts. "The only rules (you) follow".

Seems to me you forgot rule 10.

uqymynu4.jpg


Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

.... And rule 9 - didn't have redundant equipment necessary for dive safety.... This is definitely a case of hubris overwhelming reason...
 
Got this from one of your other posts. "The only rules (you) follow".

Seems to me you forgot rule 10.



Or is there a rule 11 written on the back of that list that says its OK to break any one of the rules listed by calculating the risk, or maybe as long as you follow most of these rules because each rule kinda sorta, if you explain it right, overrules the other rules validity and makes it OK as long as you drop names?

(Yes, run on sentence intended)

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

I could have gone a further 200 meters in no problem, to 800 meters.

I sat a limit pre-dive of 600 meters. Got to 600 meters (and was ready to turn the dive at any time before that if I had mis-calculated or felt like it), and thought again I could have gone in further another 200 meters easily.

Prudence said NO.

So, no I did not break rule 10 and provided there is a cave line and the cave line is known/tried/tested (you know depths and time to cover it), electronics can be dispensed. They are not essential to safety.

Conversely, you can have all the electronics in the world, without a cave line (and cave training...) you cannot safely do the dive (see the Spivey thread, for example).

Nonetheless, there is nothing to be gained to dive without electronics on any dive (so better not forget them in the garage next time!).

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 04:07 PM ----------

So,

Now I have a context for the posts... I went into my Cave diver's forum to see if Gian was just being obtuse and argumentative here, but it seems this is his MO everywhere:


His first post on the cave. Diver forum was this:

> Dear Administrator,
> your forum is so poor in quality and the way it is run that I am ceasing to participate in it.
> Gian A. Ameri



It was followed by a fight on a thread about O2 toxicity:

> There is no evidence O2 is narcotic in the 20 to...
> There is no evidence O2 is narcotic in the 20 to 30 meter range.
> People do not narc out in chambers at 2.8 bar pPO2.



Funny, he claims to be a Sheck proponent ( I guess not on learning from past mistakes)

> I am a Sheck disciple.

But what convinced me was him attacking Jim Wyatt, training director of the NSS-CDS:

> Originally Posted by gianaameri
> Was Jim Wyatt part of the "team?" (seems not, so how does he know the Team "plan," assuming they had one.

To which Jim replied:

> > No sir, I was not part of the team nor was I listening to their dive plan being made, they were about 50 yards away from me at > > that point. I spent a couple of hours, maybe more talking with the two survivors of that three man team after the accident.

>> I have relayed to you much of what they told me about the plan and what happened after Carlos toxed. If you do not trust >> >> what I am relaying to you is an accurate account of what I was told, or if you think the survivors are "hiding" something then >> there is nothing more for me to say to you about this accident.

So this guy makes it a habit, and even puts down, one of the longest and most skilled Cave divers who heads the NSS Training committee.... On the largest Cave Diving forum....

No shock that he does the same here...

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 03:58 PM ----------



.... And rule 9 - didn't have redundant equipment necessary for dive safety.... This is definitely a case of hubris overwhelming reason...

Rule 9?

I had 6 running cave lights and 2 backups., 2 x 18 ltr. tanks at 220 bar at the start of the dive. A scooter and a pair of fins. Cookies, arrows, and 2 spools. Energy bars and cyalume lights inside the scooter. Plenty of redundancy (spare mask...).

For your other comments, there is other threads pertinent to those (but no I am not going to rediscuss O2 narcosis, rebreather functional safety, flying pigs, and the rest. No interest).
 
So there is a rule 11. You either follow the rules or you don't. Your post said these are the only rules you follow. You were over confident in your abilities to do that dive so the rule was superseded. It doesn't matter who we are and how many times we get away with breaking rules, it is dangerous. Your defense of your decision oozes overconfidence. Takes a bigger man and a real pro to admit they were wrong. Obviously you will never understand this.

I hope you stay safe and I never have to read about you in the A&I forum.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 
So there is a rule 11. You either follow the rules or you don't. Your post said these are the only rules you follow. You were over confident in your abilities to do that dive so the rule was superseded. It doesn't matter who we are and how many times we get away with breaking rules, it is dangerous. Your defense of your decision oozes overconfidence. Takes a bigger man and a real pro to admit they were wrong. Obviously you will never understand this.

I hope you stay safe and I never have to read about you in the A&I forum.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, overconfidence is what you discover after the fact (i.e. in hindsight).

In this specific case, it was an incredibly reasoned out and calculated risk which I knowingly and deliberately took and had I been "over-confident" I would not have exited the cave with 150 bar in each 18 ltr. tank and just over 1 hr. of dive time (nonetheless I could have very well miscalculated something, possibly due to overconfidence).

I have yet to hear from Tony Chaney who started (for all intensive purposes this thread)... then maybe we should put it to rest.
 
I

Rule 9?

I had 6 running cave lights and 2 backups., 2 x 18 ltr. tanks at 220 bar at the start of the dive. A scooter and a pair of fins. Cookies, arrows, and 2 spools. Energy bars and cyalume lights inside the scooter. Plenty of redundancy (spare mask...).

For your other comments, there is other threads pertinent to those (but no I am not going to rediscuss O2 narcosis, rebreather functional safety, flying pigs, and the rest. No interest).


No bottom Timer, No depth gauge, No dive tables.... AND OBVIOUSLY No back up for these items either. Yea, you blew Rule 9.


NACD STANDARDS FOR CAVE DIVING - Equipment:

Minimum Equipment: Mask, fins, submersible pressure gauge, exposure suit suitable for diving location, BC with power inflator, slate and tables, knife, timing device, appropriate weight, three battery powered lights, 71.2 cu. ft. tank with manifold, primary reel with 400+ of guideline, safety reel, additional first stage with a minimum five foot hose, line markers, clothes pins and an additional light for a total of three, compass, primary light with minimum of 20 watts, two secondary reels and line arrows

IANTD Technical Cave Program Equipment Requirements:

All students will be taught the concept of gas matching. All bottom mix tanks will be equipped with dual outlet valves. If a Rebreather is used, it must be equipped with adequate bailout to make a safe ascent to the decompression stop(s). The total team bailout should enable the diver to reach the surface safely including staged or transported (via surface support divers) bailout gas
For OC two primary regulators, one of which must have a second stage hose of 1.5 metres (4.5 ft) in length – longer hoses are recommended. This longer hose must be attached to one of the second stages to facilitate gas sharing
One or more separate stage tank(s) sufficient for decompression must be carried by the diver
All cylinders must be correctly labeled as to gas content according to IANTD standards
The oxygen or highest EANx regulator must have some form of guard or cover to prevent accidental use
All independent breathable gas sources must feature a submersible pressure gauge
A primary BCD and a backup BCD is required if a diver is using a wetsuit and is sufficiently negative in buoyancy that he/she cannot maintain floatation without the use of a BCD. If dry suits are used, the dry suit may be considered the emergency BCD floatation in lieu of a backup BCD. Lift bags and other buoyant sources may not be considered as redundant BCD’s
When performing dives in OW: If during confined water training it is discovered that the student cannot remove his/her equipment in less than 1.5 minutes and/or if a buddy cannot, while having the student act as a victim in need of assistance, remove the student’s equipment in under 1.5 minutes, a quick-release mechanism on the harness will be required. IANTD recommends the use of a quick release located below the shoulder D-ring, as close to the base of the harness as possible
A lift bag of at least 22.5 kg (50 lb) lift capacity and a line reel for deployment
A backup cutting tool is recommended
Decompression tables and accurate depth gauge, plus bottom timer device or a dive computer is required
A backup dive computer or bottom timer/depth gauge is recommended
Tanks must be labeled with IANTD stickers or other identification, such as may be required by community practice or local laws and regulations. At a minimum, the labels must clearly identify the MOD and oxygen content of the mixture. It is recommended that IANTD labels be used to meet this requirement, in addition to those required by law
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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