Innovation in diving

[gianaameri]

No bottom Timer, No depth gauge, No dive tables.... AND OBVIOUSLY No back up for these items either. Yea, you blew Rule 9.


NACD STANDARDS FOR CAVE DIVING - Equipment:

Minimum Equipment: Mask, fins, submersible pressure gauge, exposure suit suitable for diving location, BC with power inflator, slate and tables, knife, timing device, appropriate weight, three battery powered lights, 71.2 cu. ft. tank with manifold, primary reel with 400+ of guideline, safety reel, additional first stage with a minimum five foot hose, line markers, clothes pins and an additional light for a total of three, compass, primary light with minimum of 20 watts, two secondary reels and line arrows

IANTD Technical Cave Program Equipment Requirements:

All students will be taught the concept of gas matching. All bottom mix tanks will be equipped with dual outlet valves. If a Rebreather is used, it must be equipped with adequate bailout to make a safe ascent to the decompression stop(s). The total team bailout should enable the diver to reach the surface safely including staged or transported (via surface support divers) bailout gas
For OC two primary regulators, one of which must have a second stage hose of 1.5 metres (4.5 ft) in length – longer hoses are recommended. This longer hose must be attached to one of the second stages to facilitate gas sharing
One or more separate stage tank(s) sufficient for decompression must be carried by the diver
All cylinders must be correctly labeled as to gas content according to IANTD standards
The oxygen or highest EANx regulator must have some form of guard or cover to prevent accidental use
All independent breathable gas sources must feature a submersible pressure gauge
A primary BCD and a backup BCD is required if a diver is using a wetsuit and is sufficiently negative in buoyancy that he/she cannot maintain floatation without the use of a BCD. If dry suits are used, the dry suit may be considered the emergency BCD floatation in lieu of a backup BCD. Lift bags and other buoyant sources may not be considered as redundant BCD’s
When performing dives in OW: If during confined water training it is discovered that the student cannot remove his/her equipment in less than 1.5 minutes and/or if a buddy cannot, while having the student act as a victim in need of assistance, remove the student’s equipment in under 1.5 minutes, a quick-release mechanism on the harness will be required. IANTD recommends the use of a quick release located below the shoulder D-ring, as close to the base of the harness as possible
A lift bag of at least 22.5 kg (50 lb) lift capacity and a line reel for deployment
A backup cutting tool is recommended
Decompression tables and accurate depth gauge, plus bottom timer device or a dive computer is required
A backup dive computer or bottom timer/depth gauge is recommended
Tanks must be labeled with IANTD stickers or other identification, such as may be required by community practice or local laws and regulations. At a minimum, the labels must clearly identify the MOD and oxygen content of the mixture. It is recommended that IANTD labels be used to meet this requirement, in addition to those required by law

If you are doing a cave course and you dive caves you should have all that equipment (not that you need to carry it all in a dive if for that specific planned dive you do not need it). I am not suggesting otherwise, and other than electronics had it all (well, no rebreather during the dive... and no lift bag - stupid thing to carry in a cave!!! ...no 4.5 ft. hose either required for side-mount and "solo"...).

Electronics were not essential for that specific dive. It was a dive that given the profile and schedule and available gas could not have resulted in a deco situation.

What emergency exactly could I have had in that specific dive where a Bottom Timer/Dive Computer would have been essential for handling that specific emergency?

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Tony Chaney said I made a "piss-poor decision" - but he cannot articulate why.

A cave line is designed and laid to allow for an exit from the cave in zero visibility. It can and is used to make entries in zero visibility. Following that line in and out is what allows a trained cave diver - with or without functioning electronics - to exit the cave.

Sorry to keep you waiting but I have been catching up. Just to clear some of the silt I never called you a name and actually gave you credit when I stated that, a diver of your level should be a mentor and foster safe diving." I also clearly stated that I felt your decision was piss poor and I still do!. There is no training agency, none whatsoever, that ever promotes diving without a depth guage and bottom timer. Hell even free drivers are using them these days! Scuba diving...no mater in what enviroment, is about time and depth and everything else is built around those two factors. So even if you post that your dive took place in a quarry, on a lake, in a river, fresh water, salt water etc. it would still be wrong. To do it in a cave, with a DPV, in an unknown area of the cave and solo is even worse and thus piss poor!

A cave line can lead you in and out of a cave but it will never tell you if you are in deco, out of gas, OTU's, CNS, etc.

I hope that this helps to clear the silt and assist you in seeing it from my point of view.

 

[ScubaToneDog]

No bottom Timer, No depth gauge, No dive tables.... AND OBVIOUSLY No back up for these items either. Yea, you blew Rule 9.

He don't get it. Way to stubborn to realize he is tap dancing his way through a minefield with golf shoes that are untied. I question his competence as a diver. Seen many like him over the years. Back when I was heading down the DIR/GUE road ran into many strokes that talked the talk and had the gear but pushed things little too far for my liking. Part of the reason I went the Recreational Instructor route. Thought that a majority of the Tech divers at that time were in dire need of a 12 step program. They drank the Kool Aid that no agency was serving. I classify the type as a technique diver recreational disorder. Experts in their own minds but barely beyond an AOW.

His online expertise is impressive, but questionable.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[gianaameri]

He don't get it. Way to stubborn to realize he is tap dancing his way through a minefield with golf shoes that are untied. I question his competence as a diver. Seen many like him over the years. Back when I was heading down the DIR/GUE road ran into many strokes that talked the talk and had the gear but pushed things little too far for my liking. Part of the reason I went the Recreational Instructor route. Thought that a majority of the Tech divers at that time were in dire need of a 12 step program. They drank the Kool Aid that no agency was serving. I classify the type as a technique diver recreational disorder. Experts in their own minds but barely beyond an AOW.

His online expertise is impressive, but questionable.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

It is good you question my competence. I question my decisions all the times.

BUT:

1. You cannot articulate/verbalise a single "emergency" where a Bottom Timer/Depth Gauge could have made a difference (bear in mind I was in a no-deco situation in those conditions)
2. I won't go in any details, it is the DIR who calls by mobile the Stroke to rescue his two buddies on RB80s he left in the cave stuck behind the restriction.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 06:06 PM ----------

Sorry to keep you waiting but I have been catching up. Just to clear some of the silt I never called you a name and actually gave you credit when I stated that, a diver of your level should be a mentor and foster safe diving." I also clearly stated that I felt your decision was piss poor and I still do!. There is no training agency, none whatsoever, that ever promotes diving without a depth guage and bottom timer. Hell even free drivers are using them these days! Scuba diving...no mater in what enviroment, is about time and depth and everything else is built around those two factors. So even if you post that your dive took place in a quarry, on a lake, in a river, fresh water, salt water etc. it would still be wrong. To do it in a cave, with a DPV, in an unknown area of the cave and solo is even worse and thus piss poor!

A cave line can lead you in and out of a cave but it will never tell you if you are in deco, out of gas, OTU's, CNS, etc.

I hope that this helps to clear the silt and assist you in seeing it from my point of view.

I learned to dive with no depth gauge.

My two older kids learned to dive with no depth gauge.

Why?

It was in the pool and the instructor thought for beginners there was enough to deal with that it was not necessary to introduce the depth gauge.

So, in pools, training agencies do not use depth gauges.

In my dive, I knew the depth and that is why I did not need the depth gauge. The cave line gave me the depth. Time I did not know, but I estimated it based on the run from waypoint to waypoint (the SPG and my breathing rate gave me time, but I still needed to compare that against the runtime waypoint to waypoint in case an SPG got stuck).

I am not advocating diving without electronics, but this one time I did taking a calculated risk and the dive was conducted in safety (for ME).

Now, to foster "safe diving" - a student coming out of a Full Cave course should be able to be 100% confident in a no buddy situation (i.e. Solo due to dead buddy or separation) and/or with no electronics (i.e. no mask unable to read electronics, dead electronics...).

No buddy = Solo (including on rebreather)

No electronics = No electronics (including on DPV).

 

[TONY CHANEY]

As to deco, we cave divers (GUE included) blow another Scuba 101 rule when we cave dive.

In Scuba 101 we are taught not to "yo-yo" dive, but when we dive in a cave (at least the caves I dive) forget "square profiles."

There is a lot of depth changes (i.e. "yo-yo" diving).

I'd like to hear from Tony Chaney though who is a tec cave diver (is he???) why exactly my decision was a "piss-poor decision."

The yo-yo effect is almost always present in caves and an even more reason to use a computer! And you surly cannot figure that in your head. You can always say that the floor is at 60' and the ceiling is at 30' but without a bottom timer you have no idea as to the amount of time that you spent at either. Time and depth, time and depth and time and depth...all else gets figured based on these two data points.

Tec? Well, I seldom even use that term. It is a term that has been misused, creates mixed thoughts etc. So, if you are asking me what I think is "tec" then here is my thought process. I consider "tec" as a term given when a diver is breathing a gas other than what the human body was designed to breathe and also any time a diver is in an overhead enviroment to include deco.

So are you asking me if I am a "tec" diver. Then yes. Now I do not know what you consider "tec" so if you will provide me the info I give you the cert you are looking for. But you could have just looked at my profile and figured that out. OBT, a gift from me to you...I shot the video. Cave Diving - Peanut - YouTube

 

[gianaameri]

The yo-yo effect is almost always present in caves and an even more reason to use a computer! And you surly cannot figure that in your head. You can always say that the floor is at 60' and the ceiling is at 30' but without a bottom timer you have no idea as to the amount of time that you spent at either. Time and depth, time and depth and time and depth...all else gets figured based on these two data points.

Tec? Well, I seldom even use that term. It is a term that has been misused, creates mixed thoughts etc. So, if you are asking me what I think is "tec" then here is my thought process. I consider "tec" as a term given when a diver is breathing a gas other than what the human body was designed to breathe and also any time a diver is in an overhead enviroment to include deco.

So are you asking me if I am a "tec" diver. Then yes. Now I do not know what you consider "tec" so if you will provide me the info I give you the cert you are looking for. But you could have just looked at my profile and figured that out. OBT, a gift from me to you...I shot the video. Cave Diving - Peanut - YouTube

Yes, you absolutely need a computer if you do not know the depth and the run times.

I knew the depth and the run times and knew that at those depths and run times there was no chance that I could have gone in a deco situation even if I had emptied my tanks.

So, you are right in general, but the discussion is in respect of the specifics of my dive and the "piss-poor" decision you say I made.

Of course, I do not dispute that the safest course of action (and the only course of action where depths and run times were not known from topography, cave line, and 100s of hours of prior diving meticulously that section...) would have been to pack and go home (maybe I should have stayed in bed !

 

[ScubaToneDog]

It is good you question my competence. I question my decisions all the times.

BUT:

1. You cannot articulate/verbalise a single "emergency" where a Bottom Timer/Depth Gauge could have made a difference (bear in mind I was in a no-deco situation in those conditions)
2. I won't go in any details, it is the DIR who calls by mobile the Stroke to rescue his two buddies on RB80s he left in the cave stuck behind the restriction.

OK....
1. Scooter malfunction, silt out, on farthest leg. What was your contingency plan for that? Count 1000-1 1000-2 all the way out

2. Really? Maybe I should call "DIR" and have them look at this thread and see what they think

And finally, I never called you a stroke, simply compared your decision making to the dangerous types I once dove with long ago. They also would preach how to do it right, but would rationalize their poor choices as no risk because of their calculative genius. It got one poor bastard that drank their Kool aid a chamber ride and some permanent nerve damage. Another one of them no longer dives after a slight mishap with his home brewed mix station that almost killed him from a contaminated mix that after a month in the hospital left him with a PE from the scarring of his lungs.
But hell, you found that shoe amongst my comment, must fit, so keep it.

We all have effectively articulated our concern over your poor decision on that dive. You have an inability to comprehend what we have said. We get what you are saying. We also get that you will continue to defend yourself because that is your persona type. Can't see ones own flaws or failures. Probably why you dive solo.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[TONY CHANEY]

What emergency exactly could I have had in that specific dive where a Bottom Timer/Dive Computer would have been essential for handling that specific emergency?

More than likely none but it is more to the point that they can give you the knowledge to PREVENT the emergency. And in my world, as well as others, prevention is the key. Proactive vice reactive.

OBTW, since we are getting to know each other....did you get banned from Cave Diver's Forum? I really miss your words of "wisdom" on there.

Who were you certified for full cave with? Maybe we have friends.

Enjoyed the video? I am not only certified to do the dive, but, I can do the dive, I can do it safely and even while recording. Care to post one of your own?

It really is getting hard to do a battle of knowledge with somebody so well unarmed...but I am really trying.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 06:46 PM ----------

Yes, you absolutely need a computer if you do not know the depth and the run times.

I knew the depth and the run times and knew that at those depths and run times there was no chance that I could have gone in a deco situation even if I had emptied my tanks.

No you did not! You stated before that you "estimated" the time. Which is a nice way of saying, "I guesstimated." Everybody can see thru this BS.

 

[Omisson]

Giana,

You said there was no emergency situation that could have presented itself for which a watch/bottom timer, dive deco table, or computer would be necessary on your dive?

Here's one example:

You go on your dive.... got all the way back 400 meters on your scooter and it puttered out. Its dead, threw a bearing. How long do you fiddle with it to try and get it to work?

Finally realizing its really not gonna start again... you have to turn around and SWIM out.... hopefully the last sputters or crash of the DPV didn't silt the place out.

Now you must swim the 1300 feet out of the cave? How long time wise is that? Was that "time" calculated in your run plan? Do you now have Deco? If so, how much? You don't have a table to consult or even if you did, a watch to measure things by... hopefully no other issues present themselves like a blown o-ring, other valve or regulator malfunction...

This is by no means the only easily identifiable emergency you seem to have overlooked, but it is the most obvious.

What agency certified you in DPV Cave?

Dan-O

 

[Dr. Lecter]

I thought we all learned the futility of attemping to elicit reason from gianaameri after the O2 narcosis thread... but apparently not.

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.