Input on our Accident and Incidents Forum... What do you want? How do you want it?

[Storker]

My point: The rules of the A & I forum must prevent vindictive people from using it as an avenue for settling scores and carrying out personal vendettas.

My corollary: If that means that moderation may be a little excessive at times, for various reasons, then:

In cases like this I'd prefer that the mod in question errs on the safe side. Moderator decisions are often - like deco calculations - akin to drawing a sharp black line through a muddy gray area.

 

[Bob DBF]

The sad thing is there are a small select few people that seem to thrive on A&I forums. They contribute greatly to the noise without thinking about the damage they are causing in the process. In most cases, the damage could be prevented if the speculation waited until facts were in-hand (autopsy performed, for instance).

Perhaps a more formalized method of labeling speculation before submitting a post. I don't see speculation as a problem, however speculation written as fact is. Perhaps moderating for grammar and spelling would help, as it would also help the internet as a whole.

And now I've just opened the door to the people that will say "but the information never comes out"...

That door has always been open. The fact is, in most cases the best you will get is drowning, which in no way lets anyone know why they drowned, and you are left with speculation in any event. Some cold wet day when I'm really bored, I will work up a percentage on the A&I and give fuel that discussion.

My point: The rules of the A & I forum must prevent vindictive people from using it as an avenue for settling scores and carrying out personal vendettas.

I'm in agreement, and that is one of the reasons I have asked, in this thread, for more moderation from the readers, even preemptive moderation from the moderators. Any post that gets pulled can always be dropped in after review, so shoot first and ask questions later is not terminal. Once there is more moderation the bad apples are more easily found and can be dealt with accordingly.



Bob

 

[boulderjohn]

Any post that gets pulled can always be dropped in after review, so shoot first and ask questions later is not terminal. Once there is more moderation the bad apples are more easily found and can be dealt with accordingly.

The problem with this approach can be seen from my description of the thread that was not moderated for days before the problem was noted. ScubaBoard has a HANDFUL of VOLUNTEER moderators who moderate in their spare time. They burn out quickly. If you have been around for a while, you will no doubt remember a lot of very active moderators from the past who not only no longer moderate, they are not even active on ScubaBoard any more. We have manufacturer's forums where the manufacturer provides the moderator, and they don't want anyone but their moderator working their forums. Even those moderators, who are presumably being paid to do it, are not around all that much. I sent a request for some information to the moderator of one of the major mahufacturer's forums, and after 7 years I have still not gotten a response. We had a recent problem in one of those forums because we were getting blamed by the manufacturer and his friends for not doing a better job moderating his forum--it turned out that the employee he had hired to do the work had quit years before, and it had not occurred to him that he needed to replace him.

So who would do this work? How long would they do it before they, too, leave the forum untended, with no one realizing it was not being tended?

 

[Bob DBF]

ScubaBoard has a HANDFUL of VOLUNTEER moderators who moderate in their spare time.

I learn something new every day, contrary to popular belief.

At this juncture, it would seem that A&I will continue as it has.

Would it help for members to be more diligent in reporting issues in A&I, or would it just cause more problems? I have my own personal filters and have not reported anything as I make my own judgement of what I read and how much I believe.


Bob

 

[EricTheDood]

So let's look at this fatality again. In this particular case, we have public statements made by one cave instructor questioning the judgment of another cave instructor.

Be honest for a second, if this particular incident were to have gone to court, do you doubt that those comments would have been brought up?

INAL, but I believe they would've been inadmissible as hearsay unless the other cave instructor were retained as an expert witness (however unlikely), in which case the issue would be moot.

Do you think the insurance company would vigorously defend the instructor that performed the rescue, or do you think they would have cut and run?

It takes a lot more than one person's opinion to sway an insurance company. They don't make money by writing checks. And if they did in this case, it'd again be moot because that would imply a confidential settlement taking place.

Now, put yourself in the shoes of the instructor that performed the RESCUE of the buddy and protected his student. How would you feel?

I'd be pissed. But likewise, if in a hypothetical case, an instructor's negligence were directly responsible for a fatality, should other instructors be silenced from sharing their opinions? Some will say, let the courts decide. What if the case settles (most do)? The info gets buried under seal.

 

[The Chairman]

So I'm probably one of the cavers that have complained about A&I forums.

Not so much... you're almost (almost) the only voice of reason in the cave community. In fact, your mind is almost too open to be regarded to be a caver!

Before the body recovery was even completed, another cave instructor starting posting disparaging remarks regarding the incident on the internet.

That was simply wrong. Were those same comments made here, I am certain that they would have been removed. As @Capt Jim Wyatt pointed out, agencies can take eption to those kind of remarks and they removed him as an instructor. You never get in trouble for being nice. FWIW, he based his comments not on information that was on the interwebs, but that he had gotten via the cave gossip brigade. The best defense against rumors is the truth.

The sad thing is there are a small select few people that seem to thrive on A&I forums.

The number ain't all that small. I hope you take the time to read the reasons people come here and what they feel our mission here is. Divers get scared when they hear about all these deaths. The more mysterious the deaths appear to be, the scarier they are. Moreover, if the truth isn't posted here, then the gossip around the caves goes into overtime. Did I mention that the truth is the best defense against rumors?

 

[Marie13]

As a newbie diver, I find A&I interesting, if not instructive. It reinforces the "don't do stupid crap."

 

[kensuf]

That was simply wrong. Were those same comments made here, I am certain that they would have been removed. As @Capt Jim Wyatt pointed out, agencies can take eption to those kind of remarks and they removed him as an instructor. You never get in trouble for being nice. FWIW, he based his comments not on information that was on the interwebs, but that he had gotten via the cave gossip brigade. The best defense against rumors is the truth.

I still have copies of the comments made by that guy. The comments were unfounded attacks that had less to do with what he heard through the cave gossip grapevine and more to do with his personal mission to try and make himself appear to be a better person by tearing others down.

The cynical side of me says he made those comments in an effort to try and promote himself as an expert. The cynical side of me says there was a financial motive for him to do this. I really do not like all of the thoughts that the cynical side of me has had on this case because I do not want to be a negative person.

 

[Storker]

Would it help for members to be more diligent in reporting issues in A&I

Yes. Definitely. Absolutely. As several have said, the mod corps just can't monitor every friggin' thread here. We totally depend on members reporting issues. Some reports are considered, discussed and dismissed with a message to the reporter; some reports are acted upon. The members of the mod corps are grateful for both kinds of reports. Unless a member becomes a POV warrior and reports indiscriminately, that is...

or would it just cause more problems?

No. Why? How?

 

[The Chairman]

Would it help for members to be more diligent in reporting issues in A&I,

YES! YES! YESl

While we're at it, the mods usually nominate new mods, but we can always take suggestions. Just not yourself. Never, ever nominate yourself and don't ask anyone to nominate yourself either. If you want to be a mod, you're probably not suited to be one.

The cynical side of me

Yeah, I try not to feed my cynicism. It only leads to me being petty and I don't like to be petty. But I get where you're coming from, I really do. Even when I think I've been wronged I try to see the positive side of others but all too often the cynic in me sees the worst.