Wow! There's ONE.
Hey Scuba,
How 'bout posting a copy of your letter the the agency putting this guy on report before he kills somebody. You did write the letter, didn't you?
E. itajara
Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?
- Thread starter wazza
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Hey Scuba,
How 'bout posting a copy of your letter the the agency putting this guy on report before he kills somebody. You did write the letter, didn't you?
E. itajara
I'm surprised the boo-birds haven't jumped on this one yet! Let me start by saying, in general, 100 dives is probably not enough experience to produce a well rounded instructor. However, if 40 or 50 of those dives were spent assisting OW, AOW and rescue classes, with a good mentoring instructor, 100 dives might be enough for a Dm with a good head on their shoulders. The number of dives thing is only one item to consider when trying to discern instructor competence.
The biggest thing i have seen, that i would consider negligent and therefore incompetence by instructors, is skipping skills or not requiring mastery of skills to save time. I know several instructors who let the LDS push them to do this, so more students can be certified, but it is far from the majority of the instructors i know.
In general i think you do get better over time, just like anything else, practise makes perfect. You have to stay current with your standards and skills by diving and teaching diving on a regular basis, otherwise effectiveness degrades.
Doof
Contributor
I'm pretty new here, and I'll admit that I haven't read this entire thread so if what I'm saying is just a rehash of other people's points, then just disregard this post and accept my apology. 
I think the problem with any kind of arbitrary limit like 100 dives to become instructor is that it does nothing to specify what those dives should be like.
Does 100 lake dives no deeper than 30 feet and each lasting a maximum of a half hour sound like enough experience?
How about 50 dives, each one in varying conditions (night, current, surge, overhead enviornments), depths ranging from 30 feet down to 120, with some bottom times over 60 minutes?
Which of those two would make a better instructor? Would either of them be sufficient? How can you tell how good a diver is based on number of dives or even cumulative bottom time? I don't think you can.
This is stuff that our dive rescue team struggles with as well. Not only for admission into the team, but also, since we offer PADI and TDI certs for Public Safety Diver, whether or not a student is qualified to take that class. It's not an easy question, and definitely not one that can be answered either yes or no. Which is why I didn't cast a vote.
I think the problem with any kind of arbitrary limit like 100 dives to become instructor is that it does nothing to specify what those dives should be like.
Does 100 lake dives no deeper than 30 feet and each lasting a maximum of a half hour sound like enough experience?
How about 50 dives, each one in varying conditions (night, current, surge, overhead enviornments), depths ranging from 30 feet down to 120, with some bottom times over 60 minutes?
Which of those two would make a better instructor? Would either of them be sufficient? How can you tell how good a diver is based on number of dives or even cumulative bottom time? I don't think you can.
This is stuff that our dive rescue team struggles with as well. Not only for admission into the team, but also, since we offer PADI and TDI certs for Public Safety Diver, whether or not a student is qualified to take that class. It's not an easy question, and definitely not one that can be answered either yes or no. Which is why I didn't cast a vote.
Scuba
Contributor
I did receive the agency questionare, filled it out with my comments and sent it in. Didn't follow up on it though. But I rather doubt anything was done. You see, this guy was working on his master instructor or one of those higher ratings (can't remember exactly wich one it was) while working in a 5 Star Padi center.
So you'll have to excuse me if I'm a little skeptical.
I believe that there is a distinct differnce between and incompetant instructor and a lousy diver instructor..........Now I will make a very generalized statement here..Anybody can teach a student the fundimentals of diving. ( This is assuming we can all read)...But can a new diver teach someone how to dive...???...I would emphatically answer NO.....Why ?? Because a new diver does not have the experience of __________ (fill in the blank).Good diving skills come with experience, however the skills may be achieved in a short period or a long period of time....So the actual dive numbers IMHO are a non issue.....The arguement still stands if you take two divers of equal ability, and equal number of dives...I would make a general assumption that the diver with various types of dives, as opposed to the diver with only 30' quarry dives would be a more experienced diver.....Therefore a better candidate to instruct..........
Well put, i agree wholeheartedly. You also have to have a lot of passion to put forth the effort required to teach students you can be proud to say you taught.
Scuba,
Sorry you had a bad experience. I can think of no good excuses for what you explained. Maybe this attached link will ease your scepticism. Hopefully the offending persons name is on this list.
http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/qm/report.asp
Unfortunately a certain percentage of any group will always be dead weight.
Some never learn and some learn quickly. An instructor should be a good diver so they can set a good example. I don't know how many dives that takes. I'm not sure the number of dives alone is very useful as a measure of experience or skill. An instructor needs to have the desire and the ability to be a good teacher. I don't think the number of dives is even relevant here.
I think agencies need to raise the standards to get rid of the lousy instructors but qualification based on number of dives may be one of the things that just clouds the issue and lete the shlocks in. Why not just do a good job of measureing ones ability as an instructor?
I think agencies need to raise the standards to get rid of the lousy instructors but qualification based on number of dives may be one of the things that just clouds the issue and lete the shlocks in. Why not just do a good job of measureing ones ability as an instructor?
gaschef
Guest
DEar All
With reference to the 100 dives for an instructor. I feel that it is an arbitory sum. THe main criteria should be is the person up to the job they are going to do, with all the moral, ethical and legal issues, this may raise.
My background is as a commercial diver, and as an instructor trainer for SSI and ANDI. Over the course of many years I have taught and managed several diving schools in the UK. My own impression of the standard of Newly Qualified, Open Water Instructors is varied from some excellent to some who I feel should not have been given Open Water Diver, let alone an instructor rating.
One of the things I have always told instructors who work for me is, "THe day I hear your saying how much you enjoyed a dive", is the day you will be looking for a new job. as if you were enjoying the dive you cannot have been looking after your students. THe instructor in my opinion should be someone who is totally at home in the water, and does not have to think about there actions as they are automatic. An instructor who is still thinking about his or her own diving does not have sufficient experience to cope with their own problems, let alone those of their students.
THe 100 dives are an indicator only, far more emphasis should be placed on the candidates inwater ability. Given however the way in which some organisations turn out instructors, maybe 1000 dives should be applicable.
Instructors should also be licensed for particular areas. I have seen many instructors who can perform in warm, calm, clear water. But who refuse to teach in the cold murky waters of the UK with a 10 foot swell running. In these conditions locally trainied open water divers are more competent that a QUALIFIED warm water instructor. If a person qualified as an instructor in clear water, that is the only place they should be allowed to teach.
Let me know what you think. and I will reminise some more about instructors I wish I had never met
Tim "gaschef" Stevens
:bonk:
With reference to the 100 dives for an instructor. I feel that it is an arbitory sum. THe main criteria should be is the person up to the job they are going to do, with all the moral, ethical and legal issues, this may raise.
My background is as a commercial diver, and as an instructor trainer for SSI and ANDI. Over the course of many years I have taught and managed several diving schools in the UK. My own impression of the standard of Newly Qualified, Open Water Instructors is varied from some excellent to some who I feel should not have been given Open Water Diver, let alone an instructor rating.
One of the things I have always told instructors who work for me is, "THe day I hear your saying how much you enjoyed a dive", is the day you will be looking for a new job. as if you were enjoying the dive you cannot have been looking after your students. THe instructor in my opinion should be someone who is totally at home in the water, and does not have to think about there actions as they are automatic. An instructor who is still thinking about his or her own diving does not have sufficient experience to cope with their own problems, let alone those of their students.
THe 100 dives are an indicator only, far more emphasis should be placed on the candidates inwater ability. Given however the way in which some organisations turn out instructors, maybe 1000 dives should be applicable.
Instructors should also be licensed for particular areas. I have seen many instructors who can perform in warm, calm, clear water. But who refuse to teach in the cold murky waters of the UK with a 10 foot swell running. In these conditions locally trainied open water divers are more competent that a QUALIFIED warm water instructor. If a person qualified as an instructor in clear water, that is the only place they should be allowed to teach.
Let me know what you think. and I will reminise some more about instructors I wish I had never met
Tim "gaschef" Stevens
:bonk:
XtremeSea1
Guest
100 dives is only ONE of the requirements and is a minimum. A candidate with the minimum number of dives has many more hurdles to cross before getting his/her card. Regardless of the requirement, it's easy enough to fake your log book. The bottom line is...
If an instructor program is done right, only those that meet all of the requirements will make it through. I have had candidates with 500+ dives in varying environments that I wouldn't allow to teach my dog to sit let alone to teach someone to dive. There are several things I look for in a candidate...
1. Are they extremely comfortable and confident in the water
2. Can they demonstrate EVERY skill they are required to teach AND make it look easy enough that even a dummy can comprehend them.
3. Do they completely understand the curriculum and can they speak confidently about the material.
4. Will they represent the training agency in a positive and professional manner.
5. Will they promote the sport in a positive light.
6. Will they teach to the standards of the agency?
7. Can they teach to people of all educational backgrounds?
There are many more and I could go on but I think I've made my point. Teaching is more than the number of dives you have. I firmly believe that most good teachers can be made to be experienced divers. But not every experienced diver can be made a teacher. Some have it and some don't.
I didn't vote in the poll because I feel that either response is only a small part of a big picture.
If an instructor program is done right, only those that meet all of the requirements will make it through. I have had candidates with 500+ dives in varying environments that I wouldn't allow to teach my dog to sit let alone to teach someone to dive. There are several things I look for in a candidate...
1. Are they extremely comfortable and confident in the water
2. Can they demonstrate EVERY skill they are required to teach AND make it look easy enough that even a dummy can comprehend them.
3. Do they completely understand the curriculum and can they speak confidently about the material.
4. Will they represent the training agency in a positive and professional manner.
5. Will they promote the sport in a positive light.
6. Will they teach to the standards of the agency?
7. Can they teach to people of all educational backgrounds?
There are many more and I could go on but I think I've made my point. Teaching is more than the number of dives you have. I firmly believe that most good teachers can be made to be experienced divers. But not every experienced diver can be made a teacher. Some have it and some don't.
I didn't vote in the poll because I feel that either response is only a small part of a big picture.
Popeye
Contributor
Hear, hear, well said.
It's not how they go in the progam, it's how they come out.
Number of dives is a small measure of capability.
Similar threads
