the Hermit
Registered
Thank you all for turning down the heat...
It is not my intention to discourage anyone from becoming a certified professional, nor to ask people to be cold-hearted. I happen to love diving very much, and respect the choice that professionals make to support me as a lowly diver...
... my attempt at humor. It was only my intention to shed light on an aspect of certification which didn't seem to be getting much attention.
I wanted to share my experience with Lacycroft because she was asking a question I had already asked years ago. The answers I got were not all what I expected and I feel they are important to consider for someone who is thinking of getting the cetifications, without actually using them professionally. When I planned to do this same thing, I was convinced to get as close to the pro line as possible, without crossing over, by very good people who had taken the step to the pros themselves.
It was an instructor who told me that during his vacation on a liveaboard, an inexperienced diver died, and in the subsequent investigation he was contacted about being a DM and Instructor. He was asked where he was when the accident occured, and was closely questioned if he could have intervened to prevent the death (he was resting on the deck when the diver drowned near the boat). He explained that the investigator had gotten access to the boarding info legally and specifically looked at everyone's credentials to find those who met the higher criteria for "standard of duty". He told me he had known other professionals who had similar experiences. He told me he had heard of DMs and Instructors who had been named in litigation. He also told me that PADI had been there for him, and that he had not suffered any problems from the incident. He also mentioned that, during his personal vacation trips, he is hesitant to tell operators about his credentials because it could come back to haunt him legally. Bottom line seemed to be that if you get pro certification you need to maintain your insurance, keep your skills sharp, and be more careful than an average diver.
I discussed this with other pros and thats when the scenario of a DM/Instructor being a basically innocent bystander, on a beach/dock/etc..., who sees a problem and responds to help. Not only is it an ethical and moral issue, it is also a legal one, and as a certified expert there would be a legal expectation for the pro to provide a higher standard of care, than a normal citizen. I reread my first post and I think that I could have written about my experience more clearly - I really did try.
And TMHeiner makes another point that was brought up in my discussions back then - with the Red Cross, Dive pros, and the legal types I went to school with. Does your higher standard of duty ever go away, once you are certified, and the record of your expertise is signed into law, so to speak. The opinions I have gotten, over the years, is that it is a lifelong commitment. In court you may certainly argue that you have not been active for many years, and this "will" be a mitigating circumstance, but in the end its still up to the jury and/or court to decide if you should be held to the higher standard, or not.
TM also mentions the "classes" he was in to learn about the legal issues, and that is what I was trying to get to for Lucy, in a nutshell. I hoped to share a bit of the info people are given in the First Responder and pro diver classes. These classes are given for higher certification and licensing, so the the people getting the qualifications, can protect themselve from the possible legal backlashes. None of the industry classes tell you not to help people - they tell you to help all you can, and they educate you on how to do it without being hurt yourself. I'd also like to mention, I was told that my certifying agency would not allow me to stay with the class, unless I signed the legal paperwork upfront, including the insurance agreement. They knew the possible legal consequences and were careful to not open themselves to new liabilities.
To DanV I say that no one "deserves" to die, unless they are a souless monster who intentionally destroys an innocent victim. A person who does their best to help another, while being cautious to avoid having their own lives ruined, is not such a monster. It is easy to lightly throw around the idea of being the hero, but it is not a strength that every good person is born with. Furthermore, there are people like me, who don't want others to risk their lives foolishly. If I dig myself a hole, its not some elses responsibility to jump in with me. Still... I understand what you mean and it is very kind that you and others care so much. Truth is I am the Knight-in-Shining-Armor type also, and its taken a lot of training and years of soul searching for me to figure out how to help others, without becoming another victim.
As for Scott, I wonder if you have ever had the great misfortune to be unfairly persecuted by one of those "ambulance chasers" ? I have known a few people who succesfully defended themselves from an unfair lawsuit, and they were still left with tens of thousands of dollars in defense costs, and that was a real hardship for their family for years. It is possible to help people and still protect yourself from legal disaster, but it requires the knowledge and understanding of legal principles, before you act. If you want to be a superman and take on all the ambulance chasers, I wish you luck, because I don't like them either. But, I would rather be smart about it and figure out how to help people, without being ground up by the system.
And finally to Lacycroft. I have read most of the thread and find that I mostly agree. I agree that DM & Instructor courses build great skills, I just wanted you to know upfront, that there are legal considerations that come with the certification. To this day I wish there was a "non-practicing" DM/Instructor course, that let a person learn the skills and get certified, but kept the person in the just-a-diver category.
When I was thinking of the same path, I was encouraged to find ways to accomplish the same goals without the certifications. Think about classes like stress and rescue, tech diving (for the science and physiology knowledge), ADV Nitrox, etc, add in some First Aid and possibly First Responder training, and then spend as much time diving as possible. If you add Stress and Rescue class, First Responder training, a few tech/advanced courses, and lots of practice all together - you come up with something that has a lot in common with the DM curriculum. You might even be able to get your employer to pay for the First Responder/First Aid stuff, because First Responders are good for their insurance and state regs. Just so you know, the First Responder training is specifically designed to stop just short of forcing you into the higher standard of duty. It does not teach the more invasive and dangerous stuff, like shots and such, so you get to remain a normal citizen with the "Good Samaritan" protections. It is really nice to have such practical skills and it might even help you to safely save anothers life, the way several of my ERT squadmates did.
TM is right... shouldn't have fought on your thread... apologies...
I wish you years of wonderful adventures... The Hermit
It is not my intention to discourage anyone from becoming a certified professional, nor to ask people to be cold-hearted. I happen to love diving very much, and respect the choice that professionals make to support me as a lowly diver...
... my attempt at humor. It was only my intention to shed light on an aspect of certification which didn't seem to be getting much attention.I wanted to share my experience with Lacycroft because she was asking a question I had already asked years ago. The answers I got were not all what I expected and I feel they are important to consider for someone who is thinking of getting the cetifications, without actually using them professionally. When I planned to do this same thing, I was convinced to get as close to the pro line as possible, without crossing over, by very good people who had taken the step to the pros themselves.
It was an instructor who told me that during his vacation on a liveaboard, an inexperienced diver died, and in the subsequent investigation he was contacted about being a DM and Instructor. He was asked where he was when the accident occured, and was closely questioned if he could have intervened to prevent the death (he was resting on the deck when the diver drowned near the boat). He explained that the investigator had gotten access to the boarding info legally and specifically looked at everyone's credentials to find those who met the higher criteria for "standard of duty". He told me he had known other professionals who had similar experiences. He told me he had heard of DMs and Instructors who had been named in litigation. He also told me that PADI had been there for him, and that he had not suffered any problems from the incident. He also mentioned that, during his personal vacation trips, he is hesitant to tell operators about his credentials because it could come back to haunt him legally. Bottom line seemed to be that if you get pro certification you need to maintain your insurance, keep your skills sharp, and be more careful than an average diver.
I discussed this with other pros and thats when the scenario of a DM/Instructor being a basically innocent bystander, on a beach/dock/etc..., who sees a problem and responds to help. Not only is it an ethical and moral issue, it is also a legal one, and as a certified expert there would be a legal expectation for the pro to provide a higher standard of care, than a normal citizen. I reread my first post and I think that I could have written about my experience more clearly - I really did try.
And TMHeiner makes another point that was brought up in my discussions back then - with the Red Cross, Dive pros, and the legal types I went to school with. Does your higher standard of duty ever go away, once you are certified, and the record of your expertise is signed into law, so to speak. The opinions I have gotten, over the years, is that it is a lifelong commitment. In court you may certainly argue that you have not been active for many years, and this "will" be a mitigating circumstance, but in the end its still up to the jury and/or court to decide if you should be held to the higher standard, or not.
TM also mentions the "classes" he was in to learn about the legal issues, and that is what I was trying to get to for Lucy, in a nutshell. I hoped to share a bit of the info people are given in the First Responder and pro diver classes. These classes are given for higher certification and licensing, so the the people getting the qualifications, can protect themselve from the possible legal backlashes. None of the industry classes tell you not to help people - they tell you to help all you can, and they educate you on how to do it without being hurt yourself. I'd also like to mention, I was told that my certifying agency would not allow me to stay with the class, unless I signed the legal paperwork upfront, including the insurance agreement. They knew the possible legal consequences and were careful to not open themselves to new liabilities.
To DanV I say that no one "deserves" to die, unless they are a souless monster who intentionally destroys an innocent victim. A person who does their best to help another, while being cautious to avoid having their own lives ruined, is not such a monster. It is easy to lightly throw around the idea of being the hero, but it is not a strength that every good person is born with. Furthermore, there are people like me, who don't want others to risk their lives foolishly. If I dig myself a hole, its not some elses responsibility to jump in with me. Still... I understand what you mean and it is very kind that you and others care so much. Truth is I am the Knight-in-Shining-Armor type also, and its taken a lot of training and years of soul searching for me to figure out how to help others, without becoming another victim.
As for Scott, I wonder if you have ever had the great misfortune to be unfairly persecuted by one of those "ambulance chasers" ? I have known a few people who succesfully defended themselves from an unfair lawsuit, and they were still left with tens of thousands of dollars in defense costs, and that was a real hardship for their family for years. It is possible to help people and still protect yourself from legal disaster, but it requires the knowledge and understanding of legal principles, before you act. If you want to be a superman and take on all the ambulance chasers, I wish you luck, because I don't like them either. But, I would rather be smart about it and figure out how to help people, without being ground up by the system.
And finally to Lacycroft. I have read most of the thread and find that I mostly agree. I agree that DM & Instructor courses build great skills, I just wanted you to know upfront, that there are legal considerations that come with the certification. To this day I wish there was a "non-practicing" DM/Instructor course, that let a person learn the skills and get certified, but kept the person in the just-a-diver category.
When I was thinking of the same path, I was encouraged to find ways to accomplish the same goals without the certifications. Think about classes like stress and rescue, tech diving (for the science and physiology knowledge), ADV Nitrox, etc, add in some First Aid and possibly First Responder training, and then spend as much time diving as possible. If you add Stress and Rescue class, First Responder training, a few tech/advanced courses, and lots of practice all together - you come up with something that has a lot in common with the DM curriculum. You might even be able to get your employer to pay for the First Responder/First Aid stuff, because First Responders are good for their insurance and state regs. Just so you know, the First Responder training is specifically designed to stop just short of forcing you into the higher standard of duty. It does not teach the more invasive and dangerous stuff, like shots and such, so you get to remain a normal citizen with the "Good Samaritan" protections. It is really nice to have such practical skills and it might even help you to safely save anothers life, the way several of my ERT squadmates did.
TM is right... shouldn't have fought on your thread... apologies...
I wish you years of wonderful adventures... The Hermit
