Is it worth getting your DM certification for the education?

[danvolker]

You should really consider your increased legal liability if you take a DM or Instructor course !!!


I had the same thought years ago when I ran out of interesting courses I wanted to take. On the first day of my new DM class they handed out the "insurance" form for DM coverage and I handed it back explaining I wouldn't need insurance because I was not going to actually lead any trips or train any students - I was just taking the classes to develop stronger skills. The instructor told me I would need insurance and explained that as a Divemaster or Instructor I would have a new "standard of duty". When you are certified or licensed as a "professional" the law holds you to a much higher standard of duty, meaning you are legally responsible to do much more than a normal citizen, to help or care for everyone around you. It is basically like being a doctor who "must" stop and give aid to people in an accident, or they are held as negligent, and may be sued for what happens to the accident victim.

The classroom instructor called in the shop owner and they shared their experience. They explained to the class that when a diving accident or death is investigated, the lawyers will check every diver's certification, on the liveaboard or in the vicinity, and include "every" DM and diving pro they can find, in the lawsuit. This applies even if the pro is just there on their own vacation, having fun. The lawyers and legal types will then argue that every pro in the area had a legal responsibility ("standard of duty") to help the victim, and if they can show the professional missed a chance to help, they will try to get damages from them.


In the US, and other litigious cultures, this is a pretty big deal. If you are from an area where the standard of duty is less, or the legal system doesn't support a shotgun approach to lawsuits, I would expect the issues to be completely different. It is one of the reasons I have often chosen far away destinations - they don't have the liabilities, so they allow more freedom. And I, for one, think divers should understand the risks of diving, and be held personally responsible for their own choices. A lot of damage has been done to diving in general, by lawyers who look for every excuse to hold others responsible for the divers own mistakes or foolishness. But that's another topic/soapbos for a different thread.

End of the story = I was the only person there just for the training, so I was the only one that left - and got a refund. I checked with a few other instructors and divemasters and they all confirmed the higher duty was understood and accepted by them. This is an important part of why the people who provide diving services are generally so serious about being listened to. They are often putting more on the line, than most people do for their jobs.

good luck and good diving... the Hermit

Hermit,
Not sure what you have been smoking, but whatever it is, it's not doing you any favors....

If you can afford to go on a liveaboard trip, then the tiny fee for the DM insurance is irrelevant.
What is really disturbing is the implication that you would NOT want to help people on a boat trip with you--people you were being social with, that would potentially DIE without your help....

Anyone who is so jaded that they are more concerned about the legal cr*p than about the lives of people around them, should have all dive certifications stripped from them, and should be considered a pariah...and then left to live as...a Hermit

 

[the Hermit]

Hey Dan...

I learned about the legal ramifications of "standard of duty" when I trained to become an Emergency Responder and First Aid Trainer with the American Red Cross. They made it a very serious point that when a person becomes a licensed or certified "professional", that their legal liabilities increase, in keeping with their newly demonstrated skills and knowledge. It was clearly explained that as such a person learns to provide life saving aid, that under the law they were "required" to render such aid, when it was needed. The Red Cross personnel carefully warned "against" crossing this line, unless it was needed as a part of that persons chosen "profession", and therefore chosen with careful consideration.

They also explained that there is a legal rule called the "Good Samaritan Act" which was created to protect caring people who wished to help, and needed to be protected from lawsuit if their best efforts ended badly. It basically says that so long as a person does their best to render aid, within the boundaries of their skills and training, and are not negligent, that they shall have a defense against civil and criminal legal actions, taken by the victims or their survivors. I have helped others many times, with confidence I wouldn't get ruined in court, because I understood my legal responsibilities.

This same legal structure applies to diving "professionals", and the lawyers and certifying agencies know it. It is why the SSI instructors were very careful to explain to everyone in my class that this liability was serious business, and that it was important for DM's and Instructors to maintain the appropriate insurance, and to keep their skills sharp. These people are my friends and collegues, and when they understood I wasn't actually going to guide or teach, they are the ones who "strongly" advised me to find other ways to get more training and experience.

This was the same advice I got from the Red Cross, and for the same reasons. I did not bring it up in this thread as an excuse to let people suffer or die, I brought it up because it is an important and real consideration for people who become certified professionals. As experts they will be held especially accountable, and if they don't need the extra liability, why would you want to give it to them? Anyone who is thinking of becoming a certified pro should consider the legal consequences honestly and openly.

If you consider that the lawyers are usually only concerned about getting money, and that the greiving families and friends of lost divers have to hire them, then of course I would caution any one getting professional certification that it comes with some responsibilities and liabilities they might not have thought of. The expense of defending yourself in court can run into the thosands, even if you are released from the claim - so its not just about the insurance cost.

Finally, I will say that you went out of your way to be an insulting troll. You pretended I made comments I never even considered. You asserted I was uncaring when I have never turned my back on anyone in need. If you think that all the "legal cr*p" is so unimportant, or that the "tiny fee for the DM insurance is irrelevent" to someone like me who had to sacrifice many joys and toys to afford a few liveaboards trips... maybe you need to check out what's in your pipe, and quit assuming that what you imagine is actually real.

What I have shared is a true account of my experiences, and I stand by it. If you want to shun me for honesty so be it.

If most of the people here think I should drop of the ScubaBoard I will do so immediately.

Namaste... The Hermit...

 

[danvolker]

Hey Dan...

I learned about the legal ramifications of "standard of duty" when I trained to become an Emergency Responder and First Aid Trainer with the American Red Cross...snip..What I have shared is a true account of my experiences, and I stand by it. If you want to shun me for honesty so be it.

If most of the people here think I should drop of the ScubaBoard I will do so immediately.

Namaste... The Hermit...

My post was was more severe than it should have been, and the humor at the end apparently , not funny enough....

I did not want you to become shunned, or leave scuba board....All I was looking for was for people to realize that there are "scum" in litigation, but you can't think about this AT ALL, WHEN LIVES ARE AT STAKE...
I appologize for creating a tone that seemed like I was attacking you....it was not my intent when I made the post....the ending was just lame humor

 

[TMHeimer]

In that same way of thinking then taking a rescue diver course would make you more liable.

I would be curious to know if a non working rescue diver/ dive master/instructor was on a vacation trip or fun dive just as a diver, where an accident occured and was ever sued?


As usual, you make some good points. There have been so many threads about liability. The general conclusion is that every case is individual and different. There don't seem to be any hard and fast rules. Anyone can sue for anything. Obviously having insurance helps. Can Rescue Divers get any kind of liability insurance?

 

[danvolker]

I think this is very clear....If a person has the ability to save another on the same boat with their emergency medical skills, even if not professionally trained, yet chooses not to because of a FEAR of possible litigation, THAT PERSON deserves to die....and someone should help them with this !!!!

 

[TMHeimer]

I think this is very clear....If a person has the ability to save another on the same boat with their emergency medical skills, even if not professionally trained, yet chooses not to because of a FEAR of possible litigation, THAT PERSON deserves to die....and someone should help them with this !!!!

I agree with you. But it's not black and white. Suppose someone got his DM 10 years ago and never became active, insured, etc. He just took the class to improve his skills. Then hasn't even dived the last 5 years. Of course, Rescue is a prerequisite, as is EFR/first aid. But, none of those things must ever be renewed. Even to be an active DM, PADI itself doesn't require renewal of EFR Cert. (though some shops do). So, that guy who took all this stuff 10 years ago and has been an inactive DM, now finds himself on a boat when there is an incident. He either forgot half of his skills, or at least is not sharp at all with them. If he doesn't perform an inwater rescue, CPR or administer oxygen for DCS, he is still held to the higher pro standard and can be sued, no? If you don't know this stuff you can't be of help doing it anyway. I think this is what the discussion is about, not whether someone wouldn't do what he could to help for fear of a law suit.

 

[endurodog]

Ok I hate to out myself but I have worked in public safety for the last 24 years and have those trainings. I have worked in several large agencies and been through lots of liability training. I have received 1st aid and emergency responder training but the getting sued along these lines just isn't an issue and I know of know one that has been sued like is being suggested here. So I'm just wondering if this has happened in the dive industry?

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

I do know an instructor who was sued on a dive vacation - he wasn't even involved in the accident but was on the same boat. The insurance company ended up settling....

However, if you took the dm class, but never paid initial member dues, there wouldn't be any record at the agency that you had such a professional level certification.

Given that anyone can be sued for any reason at any time, I don't worry about it. It does make me think twice about everything I do and say about diving even in casual situations, but perhaps that's a good thing. As my first course director told me, just act in accordance with your training and don't worry about litigation.

Sometimes things will happen and it was no one's fault and it can't be prevented and what are you going to do then... You have to live your life and if everyone held themselves back because they were afraid of liability nothing would ever get done ever.

 

[Scott L]

I do know an instructor who was sued on a dive vacation - he wasn't even involved in the accident but was on the same boat. The insurance company ended up settling....

However, if you took the dm class, but never paid initial member dues, there wouldn't be any record at the agency that you had such a professional level certification.

Given that anyone can be sued for any reason at any time, I don't worry about it. It does make me think twice about everything I do and say about diving even in casual situations, but perhaps that's a good thing. As my first course director told me, just act in accordance with your training and don't worry about litigation.

Sometimes things will happen and it was no one's fault and it can't be prevented and what are you going to do then... You have to live your life and if everyone held themselves back because they were afraid of liability nothing would ever get done ever.

Exactly. Saving a life supercedes everything else. Righteous divers and folks would come to the aid of someone wronged by the mistake of a judge not summarilly dismissing such a nusance suit. I say, bring it on abulance chasers...

 

[TMHeimer]

[QUOTE=
However, if you took the dm class, but never paid initial member dues, there wouldn't be any record at the agency that you had such a professional level certification.



Yes, but there would be a record of it somewhere, like with the LDS where the course was taken. Leave it to a lawyer to find out that you have the card. Also, I'm not sure if you HAVE to pay the initial PADI membership fee when you get certified or not. The safest way to avoid liability would be to buy all the materials, take the course, and just don't send in your application, don't get certified. Then you have the skills, but are not a DM, so in case you don't dive for 10 years, you won't find yourself liable when you decide now you want to do a dive charter or dive vacation. I would assume most would want the certification if they spent like $1,000 on all of the stuff. I believe there are an awful lot of folks who get DM certified and never become active, therefore never get insured. I know of one person, but I live in the boonies. This all get's back to the OP's original question.