Junk equipment

[oly5050user]

I've heard about that last bit but I've never seen a clone piece of equipment for real so I'm calling it an urban myth. In any case it doesn't look like a huge problem.

I have seen "cloned " equipment..Had a sherwood bcd come in with a broken inflator hose attachment..Took exact model off wall and showed customer that the one he had the plastic was much thinner than the one I took off wall and inflator mechanism was totally different..Not original to sherwood model..Same customer had a Aqualung micra.Did a requested annual on it..Found the pin that keeps the lever in place was not stainless steel,was all rotted out.Replaced it with proper item and showed faulty peice to customer.Both these items had been purchased from Leisure Pro less than a year..LP was selling "scubapro" that scubapro had not produced..

As for the first bit, it's a big mystery how LeisurePro gets it stuff but they get it in huge quantities and it's not stuff that didn't make it through quality testing. It's the same stuff you buy at the LDS. If everyone followed the rules then LeisurePro shouldn't be able to acquire equipment from the manufacturers, but they do. If you're cynical then you'll say that the manufacturers have a back door to LeisurePro that they're keeping mum about. If you're a little less cynical then you'll think that LeisurePro has lines out the wholesalers who have a broad interpretation of the "rules" the manufacturers try to enforce. Either way getting the genie back in the bottle isn't going to happen any time soon.

ask about how Dacor got caught delivering directly to LP at their "back"door..delivered to different name ,same address as LP.I spoke to people that we trained that had worked at Dacor's Norwalk CT location and got this as fact.For that reason quite a few LDS in area dropped Dacor.

As for your instructor trying to make you afraid that LeisurePro is like a dodgy back-alley drug dealer, that's just a scare tactic to motivate you to spend money in the shop instead of spending it online. It's a common and cynical lie. It's also possible (although in my mind less likely) that your instructor simply doesn't know how it works and is just repeating what he's been told.

Granted some instructors talk out their *****,but these things have been witnessed first hand by myself..I do not use scare tatics ..no need to,and its not ethical..

Yeah, the major manufacturers all treat the LDS's like slaves and put them under huge pressure to sell sell sell.... but the LDS isn't allowed to set the minimum price..... It's a very unfair system that leaves the LDS in the impossible situation that they can't possibly compete with the grey market retailers..... and.... you guessed it, the manufacturers don't seem to want to help. They just hang the LDS's out to dry while shops like Liesurepro are left alone to control their own business.... It's a big problem.

true some manufacturers are like that.Though some manufacturers " believe ",they are helping, Aqualung and Scuba pro as an example.for not authorizing online sales. If everyone was selling online I think it would cause many lds to simply close and the sport would fade away to a smaller market than it is now..The lds does the recruiting and training of the majority of the new divers out there.To pay for the costs to come up first on a search engine for "dive equipment" is costly,the amount of inventory is prohibitive for most, and there would only be a very few online retailers on the net that will be profit making.

Most shops run on tiny margins and making students afraid to shop online is as much a survival tactic as anything else. Just take it with a grain of salt and judge your instructor on the quality of his training.

yes most lds cannot sell the volume that would allow them to greatly lower prices if they could.I hope people feel that we come close to if not meet prices that they would get elsewhere and make up differences with service and diving experiences that we offer them. If they trust us enough to train them they should maintain that trust and let us assist them in getting equipment.After they are trained and geared up we take them diving or make the contacts easily available so they can go diving.I do not think any online stores will go diving with you..

 

[PhilEllis]

My instructor is kinda saying something similar.

I was discussing equipment with him and he said that many of the online scuba equipment providers (LeisurePro, DiveSport, and other online companies) buy equipment on the "gray" market, or get equipment that was discarded by the manufacturer as defective or of lesser quality, or even produced in asia with a brand name label slapped on.

I have difficulty believing him after reading what I have on this board, but I don't want to call him out on it because I still have 13 weeks of class.

I understand that SP has a dealer agreement with the LDS, that the LDS will sell a certain percentage of SP over other brands carried by the shop and won't sell under a certain price. Is this correct?

Like Nemrod said, if he's misleading me on equipment purchases, how can I trust that this guy isn't simply full of it on other issues?

When I was in class the other day, our teacher was telling us what brands are good to look for. He started talking about how companies (as an example Leisure Pro, Divesports, and others) will buy lots of pistons for the regs and test them and throw the crap ones out. The he talk ed of dumpster divers and how they put the junked parts in their equipment and sell it real cheap. He wouldn't name companies b/c he'd get in trouble. Can anyone give me some hints or PM me about these companies? Or heck, if you don't care, post it here.

Hi Quizzidude and CenTexDivin......welcome to Scuba Board. This is a great place to get information and if you weed through the threads, you will quickly learn that you can take some of the information you get here to the bank as absolutely accurate information, from professionals that know what they are talking about.

Your instructor was doing you a great disservice in some of the information he provided you. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in our industry. He was probably only repeating what he has been told or what he has been instructed to say. His comments have nothing at all to do with reality. The local dive store your instructor works for is likely to be under great pressure to be cost competitive. This is hard for a store that operates on the "trip and fall" business model. Some of us, myself included, have volunteered our time to attend events put on by industry organizations and to offer to local dive stores our knowledge about how the changes currently underway in the dive industry impact them......and how they can make changes to soften the blow of those changes.

I think it is important that new divers like yourself get a good understanding of how things work in our great sport. After all, divers everywhere are affected by the challenges that confront our industry. Below you will find my thoughts on some issues you have discussed with your instructor.

Online Sales. The great increase in on-line scuba sales in the past five years is not a "chicken and egg" riddle. Stores like mine have gone to online sales because that is how the customers want to purchase. The future will not find lots of baby boomers and Gen Xers coming in to sign up for scuba classes and purchase equipment. The customer of the future for scuba stores are the children of Gen Xers. They prefer an iPod to a music CD, they prefer the internet to the yellow pages, and they prefer online options for their news, entertainment, and shopping.....even scuba shopping.

Online Scuba Stores. I operate an online scuba internet store. I run this operation out of a full-service, fully stocked local scuba store. We offer dive training, dive travel, equipment sales and rental, and full equipment service. Most online scuba stores are just like mine. They are full-service dive stores with an online sales component. I get my merchandise from exactly the same place you store does.....from the manufacturer. Just like you store, we are authorized dealers for everything we sell. We don't have any gray-market or unauthorized counterfit merchandise anywhere in our store. Everything gets a full factory warranty....no matter if you walk in and make the purchase or choose to get it from our internet website. We are the Local Dive Store for customers from all over the United States, Canada, Mexico, and a variety of other countries.

Knockoffs, Counterfitting, and Other Scuba Merchandise Issues. For years, I have been hearing about all of this second quality, quality rejected merchandise that is offered to the "discount sellers". Unfortunately, I have yet to see one real example of this. Now, don't get me wrong....I think some manufacturers make better stuff than others. But I don't believe, not for one minute, that any company sells second-quality BCs, regulators, computers, or other hard goods. It simply would not be in their interest. The so called "cheap Asian copies" we often hear about is the funniest part of this argument. Why? Because in most cases, these "cheap Asian copy" places are the ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURERS for some of the largest scuba companies in the world! The entire United States scuba industry only has about $713 million dollars in annual sales (this was the figure for 2006). This includes travel, training, and equipment. If you talk about equipment only (exluding training and travel), the figure is only about $476 million for 2006. That is about the same as the sales from 10 good WalMart stores. With sales this small, scuba companies can't all afford to make every mask, snorkel, fin, regulator, bc, computer, wetsuit, bag, knife, and all of the other stuff. Like all of the world, they look to Asia for this type of manufacturing. Why? Because it is cheaper there! So, the next time you hear, "cheap Asian knockoff", remember that the Asian company that made the "cheap Asian knockoff" probably owns the tooling used to produce the "great original" the big companies sell.

How You Can Help Your Instructor. Your instructor is likely a great scuba instructor. Pay close attention to the things he tells you when you are in the water. You will be glad you did as you become a great diver. Unfortunately, I would also counsel that you pay no attention at all to him when he starts talking about the industry, the gear, and where it all comes from. Apparently, he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. But it is not too late for him to learn. Tell him to call (800) 601-DIVE anytime he wants. I love to talk about scuba and I will be happy to help him in his professional development so he can give future students the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thanks and good luck in your diving.

P.S.....I only responded because I was mentioned. In this day and time, when dealing with the internet, you have to respond quickly to criticism. Heck, I don't want to open Dive New Wire and find a release that says "DiveSports put rejected pistons in regulators prior to resale". lol. Thanks.

Phil Ellis

 

[Web Monkey]

raw deal. My instructor's warning story about buying online is that he had a "buddy" that bought a set of regs off of ebay, and when he received it, it was a box with a bunch of parts (he didn't clarify if everything was taken apart, or if it was simply ordered and not put together). I could say that it is likely the fault of the buyer for not getting enough information to make an intelligent decision about the purchase, but I don't want to cross him by telling him that.

eBay is an entirely different issue. I can certainly believe that someone bought a reg on eBay and it came in as a box of parts.

We get them in our shop for service now and then. It's usually from someone who tried to service the reg, then gave up for one reason or another and sold the reg on eBay. If you're lucky, the box will contain all the parts, and they'll be usable, if not, you'll end up buying some or tossing the reg.

Sometimes the regs have been used or flooded in salt water, then ignored. Sometimes they can be fixed, sometimes not.

While those are bad, what's worse is when you buy a reg on eBay and it's all put together, but not correctly. We've had them come in with missing/additional spacers, stripped threads, one even had an extra o-ring in it (never figured out how they managed to get it in there). If you buy a reg, plan on having it serviced before you use it. It's the only way you can be sure it's safe.

I bought a used Dive-Rite MLS-1 cannister light on eBay and almost burned my house down. It turns out that the charger was defective and the previous owner had bypassed both of the fuses with wire. The charger caught fire while the battery was charging. If I hadn't been sitting in the room with it, it would have burned the house down.

The good part is that I replaced the charger and now have a really bright dive-light for about $100.
This doesn't mean that are aren't good deals there, but that you have to be extremely careful with what you buy and who you buy it from, and in the case of regulators, include the cost of a complete teardown and rebuild in your "savings" estimate.

On the same note, I also bought a used ScubaPro MK1 reg there for $50, including the original mouthpiece, manual and box! I had it completely rebuilt, it works like a dream (and the chrome looks really cool too!)

The point is that the story about someone getting a box of parts instead of a reg is entirely possible, but if you're ready to deal with whatever the UPS guy drops off, you can get a good deal.

Terry

 

[Diver Dennis]

When people start presenting things in black and white, your BS-O-Meter should be ringing off the hook. Calling gear "junk", a training agency "dangerous" or a diving style as the "only way" are a few examples of people falling to this faulty "either/or" mentality. People feel a need to justify their decisions to the extreme, often flaming those who disagree with them. They have a tendency to present their opinions as fact and are surprised that not everyone sees their logic.

What to do?

First, don't get caught up in the agency/gear/configuration bashing thing. IOW, keep an open mind.

Second, get your information from multiple sources. It's pretty easy to do right here!

Finally, have fun. That's why we scuba dive: to have fun. Don't let other's negativism or fear mongering ruin the joy of being submersed.

Hmmm. This is exactly what happened in a recent thread about a certain BC. I did try to keep an open mind but found that some others don't and would not even take a look before making their "black and white" decision. What is the opposite of an open mind? Be very wary of listening to opinions stated as facts.

Netdoc is right though, take a look at all the information available before making a decision. Don't be bullied into buying equipment you are not comfortable with or don't have any information on. The same goes for something you might like. Don't let anyone bully into NOT buying something unless they have facts and their reason is not "just because".

 

[PhilEllis]

...........As for the first bit, it's a big mystery how LeisurePro gets it stuff but they get it in huge quantities and it's not stuff that didn't make it through quality testing. It's the same stuff you buy at the LDS. If everyone followed the rules then LeisurePro shouldn't be able to acquire equipment from the manufacturers, but they do. If you're cynical then you'll say that the manufacturers have a back door to LeisurePro that they're keeping mum about. If you're a little less cynical then you'll think that LeisurePro has lines out the wholesalers who have a broad interpretation of the "rules" the manufacturers try to enforce. Either way getting the genie back in the bottle isn't going to happen any time soon.........

Diver0001.........I don't think there is any mystery. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for me to believe that any gray-market retailer can get the merchandise they get, in the quantity they get it, from anywhere other than the EXACT SAME PLACE WE ALL GET IT!

What will be the reaction if a couple of these major manufacturers.....the same ones that have been telling all of the LDS stores that they DO NOT sell directly to these gray-market sources and only support the "authorized dealers".....are forced to make a near-future announcement that they have been, after all, selling directly to these sources, calling them "unauthorized dealers"? You think that will cause a little uproar with the local guys?

Stay tuned.........film at 11!

Phil Ellis

 

[ams511]

At most other LDS, 10 students might be average for a class session, however this is an LDS that is also used to teach scuba for course credit through a university. There are at least 7 different Basic labs during the week with around 8-12 people in most, not including the instructor or AI. I believe that there is around 16 people in my lab, only because there's the instructor, and two AI in training, myself and a young woman. The classrooms are held less frequently but as a larger group. There are also 2 Advanced/Master classes this semester, which requires the purchase of more gear, pretty much everything short of a bc, regs, and tanks.

Point being, there are plenty of opportunities for the LDS to make money off of the many "newbie" students that may buy gear and then let it sit in a closet, but in addition to myself, a few of my AI classmates are beginning to tire of hearing that just because we find a deal either online or at another LDS, that we're gonna get a raw deal. My instructor's warning story about buying online is that he had a "buddy" that bought a set of regs off of ebay, and when he received it, it was a box with a bunch of parts (he didn't clarify if everything was taken apart, or if it was simply ordered and not put together). I could say that it is likely the fault of the buyer for not getting enough information to make an intelligent decision about the purchase, but I don't want to cross him by telling him that.

While many people do rush into the purchase of gear, I have spent untold hours trying to find very esoteric specs (flow rates at depth, etc.) that I can use to try to differentiate one set of regs from another rather than simply pick one because something looks cool or is made from titanium or carbon fiber.

If anything I appreciate you motivating me write this, because it's allowed to me reevaluate my shopping experience at the LDS that I'm training at.

I am sorry to here your college does not provide gear. I went to Penn State and am currently at FIU both universities supplied the gear needed. Both the colleges try to stay out of the individuals decision to purchase scuba gear.

The ebay story is probably bunk. If the guy bought it from ebay and the picture was not as described he could have simply contacted the seller or ebay. What seller is going to take a photo then disassemble the regs? I bought 5 regs off of ebay and all worked fine after service. Several were already serviced and sold by dive shops. If you buy from divers or from dive shops you will have less risk than buying "as is" from some estate sale guy. Decide how much you want to spend and then contact a vendor here on SB or place a free want to buy ad. Scuba is not an inexpensive hobby but it is cheaper if you buy smart.

 

[ams511]

Oh one more thing, if you show up with gear not purchased from him be prepared to get razzed about it. That happened to me too. It won't matter even if you have top of the line stuff.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As an employee of a shop who sometimes gets into trouble because I will not try to talk people into buying our top of the line reg when I know they need to save a few bucks and the next model or two down will do just fine , I agree with all of the previous posters. I will say that the reason I will sell them what they need is because I have all three models personally and except for some featurtes and cosmetics they all breath great and do what I need them to do. Phil is correct as I've also found out when it comes to certain items masks for instance there are a few manufacturers and they produce for two or more of the big boys as well as outfits like body glove and scubamax. The difference?:huh: A logo and 20 or 30 bucks or more to the retail customer. Your instructor is obviously trying to get you to buy from him and using scare tactics:no . I had the same thing two weeks ago when two university students who were taking a class thru the college put on by one of the lds's in our area were told they need not only their mask, snorkel, fins and boots but also needed to purchase a watch/knife/compass package for 140 bucks for their ow class:11: ! The one kid actually told me that he may not know much about this sort yet but he knows when someone is trying to rip him off. Even the personal gear package they were pushing on these kids was the kind of stuff we do not carry because we like our customers to come back. The price for this was 175 bucks. I proceeded to show him how I could set him up with gear for maybe 20 or 30 bucks more that I could guarantee he'd be happy with and last him for many years of service. As for the watch/compass/knife package? I told him go to Walmart and get a 30 dollar g-shock rated to 200 meters, he did not need to buy a compass for his ow checkouts,the lds should provide it . Why buy something he may not need again. And if he did ebay has em for 34.95 buy it now prices and the knife? I showed him my DIR blade:14: . Told him go to walmart buy a set of em for 4 bucks and a minimag lite. Why? the mini mag lite sheath fits it like a glove and he'll have the light for his glove box. Total cost: about half of what the place wanted. If he gets the compass. Otherwise about 50 bucks for the watch, knives, and maglite. Result, both came back and are coming back with a couple friends . My instructor/shop owner is finding out that people are more discriminating these days. And it's ok to sell em a reg that you may not make as much on if they don't want or need it because they will come back and buy items that your profit margin may be bigger on. And they will keep coming back. I'd rather have ten customers coming back often and make 50 bucks on each sale(500 dollars) than one who I make 400 off of on one sale and never see again. Because those 10 will continue to use us and be a steady source of revenue even if it's just a few dollars EVERY time when they buy a bottle of defog or some clips etc . The 400 dollar guy we may never see again.

 

[dry heat diver]

When I was in class the other day, our teacher was telling us what brands are good to look for. He started talking about how companies (as an example) will buy lots of pistons for the regs and test them and throw the crap ones out. The he talk ed of dumpster divers and how they put the junked parts in their equipment and sell it real cheap. He wouldn't name companies b/c he'd get in trouble. Can anyone give me some hints or PM me about these companies? Or heck, if you don't care, post it here.

Seems pretty far fetched to me. Why would a manufacturer want to take on that kind of product liability in our litigious society?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Also ask him what hours his shop is open now? Just realized who you are talking about guzzidude. He was a scubapro dealer. He closed his shop awhile ago and unless there have been recent developments it has not reopened. Wonder why? We have quite a few of his old customers/ students. Have heard some interesting stories regarding service issues, teaching methods, and other things about how well trained his students are. We've taken a few and redid their skills and went over things that were not taught.