Junk equipment

[Diver0001]

Diver0001.........I don't think there is any mystery. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for me to believe that any gray-market retailer can get the merchandise they get, in the quantity they get it, from anywhere other than the EXACT SAME PLACE WE ALL GET IT!

What will be the reaction if a couple of these major manufacturers.....the same ones that have been telling all of the LDS stores that they DO NOT sell directly to these gray-market sources and only support the "authorized dealers".....are forced to make a near-future announcement that they have been, after all, selling directly to these sources, calling them "unauthorized dealers"? You think that will cause a little uproar with the local guys?

Stay tuned.........film at 11!

Phil Ellis

I guess the main point is that this industry is mutating. it's not really the right type of business to support a dealership model. Scuba gear is (or is becoming) a commodity item as we speak and the way I see it the LDS's are paying the price for the manufacturer's refusal to change with the times. The main point seems to be that the industry needs some modernizing to take the pressure of the LDS's and the way it is, the manufacturers are at least partially responsible for shops using training as a loss-leader so they can sell an extra BCD....

I wonder why retailers don't get organized and lobby for an investigation into this...

R..

 

[under water]

I can understand the theory that the LDS will scare new (and naive) students into purchasing equipment that they might recommend because they "personally" know that the equipment performs well, but what I don't understand is why the LDS or any employee there would risk losing a long term relationship with a customer that is more valuable than selling only a single set of gear for around a grand to a "newbie" only to have the customer later feel that they may have been ripped off.

The only explanation for my situation that I can think of is that my LDS deals with a lot of college students that are only around the area for a few years before moving on, so the LDS must "milk" these students for what they can to survive.

I can't say this authority, but my take on it is that most people who buy all that expensive gear from the LDS right after OW use it maybe less than a dozen dives then move on to another hobby/pastime for one reason or another. A lot of them keep the stuff in the garage for 10 years and then try to sell it. These days with Craigslist and eBay, it might move a bit faster.
I'm guessing that a lot of an LDSs profit comes from that initial equipment purchase when the student realizes that they just gotta have their own stuff!
Most college students probably can't afford it (time & $$$), they go to eBay & Craigslist. It might be the empty nester's and mid-life folks that are the biggest opportunity.

 

[Stu S.]

This idea of dumpster parts is horsefeathers, and I don't mean feathers.

No manufacturer of a regulator is going to buy hundreds of parts and sort through them. Precision parts are most economically made using automated equipment, and are therefore accurate. The key to production efficiency is to get good components and build everything right the first time. Nobody could stay in business buying parts and regularly putting them in a dumpster.

Ask your instructor if he has ever been to a regulator factory. Which one? Ask you instructor if he has ever set foot in any factory at all.

If he is willing to accuse a business or individual of deliberately selling goods that represent a hazard to the user, he'd better be able to prove it.

 

[ianw2]

My instructor is kinda saying something similar.
I was discussing equipment with him and he said that many of the online scuba equipment providers (LeisurePro, DiveSport, and other online companies) buy equipment on the "gray" market, or get equipment that was discarded by the manufacturer as defective or of lesser quality, or even produced in asia with a brand name label slapped on.

As others have said, Holy Moly! Can you imagine the judgments in those law suits? A company purposefully collecting parts from the dumpsters of competitors knowing the parts were defective rejects? Woof! Think of all the zeros on THAT check!

When we bought the clone, the LDS did not hide the fact and explained that the same Taiwanese factory that produced for top end American and Italian brands also sold unbranded regs from the same molds and tooling. As far as he could tell there was no quality difference on the metal parts just the use of some slightly cheaper plastics for housings where tolerances and appearance were non critical.

In my experience dealing with offshore manufacturers, the molds, etc. belong to the customer, not the shop (unless the customer is a rookie who doesn’t know the ropes). The shop may well learn from manufacturing the parts/pieces for their customer, but they aren’t likely to jeopardize business by using the customers molds/toolings making no name knock offs.

On the other hand, we Americans are so willing to pay additional for the name tag that there is a HUGE market for off-shore manufacturers who, under contract to the American company, make the piece and slap on a name tag that doubles the price. Just look at Nike. A Nike t-shirt cost more than twice what the same t-shirt from Hanes costs and three or four times what the same t-shirt at Wally World costs and all three were likely made on the same machines!

However no manufacturer is going to go "dumpster diving" to get the bad parts to build regs with. The liability (civil and criminal) would be too huge.

OTOH, this doesn't mean that there are no poorly or cheaply designed regs out there. The first regulator I ever had contains a second stage valve that would be more appropriate on a car tire than a SCUBA reg.

I'm certain your instructor was trying to get you to buy the brand his shop carries, which may or may not be excellent equipment, regardless of the story he told you.

This is an interesting thread. Does anyone have a factual take on why the major brands of SCUBA feel so negatively about on-line sales? I can’t think of another industry that so strictly adheres to a policy of not honoring warrantees for anything bought from an on-line vendor.

 

[Stu S.]

Back around 1979, the scuba industry tried to put the brakes on catalog or department store sales. There was no on-line yet. The reason given was that selling through dive shops gave some assurance that only cerified divers would buy their gear. That's probably reasonable, as the industry was working to get everyone certified.

I suppose, and I do mean suppose, that there is an additional reason. The worst day in the manufacturing year is when a major retailer like Wal-Mart or Sears sits you down to negotiate what they are going to pay for your products. These retailers have such market share that they can take the drivers seat on this. Obviously, the price you sell your product to these guys has a major effect on your growth, profitability, and even your existance.

Nobody who makes a product likes getting beat up by a national retailer. Selling through many smaller outlets may be more profitable. It gives the manufacturer more control.

 

[mike_s]

Back around 1979, the scuba industry tried to put the brakes on catalog or department store sales. There was no on-line yet. The reason given was that selling through dive shops gave some assurance that only cerified divers would buy their gear. That's probably reasonable, as the industry was working to get everyone certified.

I suppose, and I do mean suppose, that there is an additional reason. The worst day in the manufacturing year is when a major retailer like Wal-Mart or Sears sits you down to negotiate what they are going to pay for your products. These retailers have such market share that they can take the drivers seat on this. Obviously, the price you sell your product to these guys has a major effect on your growth, profitability, and even your existance.

Nobody who makes a product likes getting beat up by a national retailer. Selling through many smaller outlets may be more profitable. It gives the manufacturer more control.

You are right. It does give the manufacturer more control. That's the way they like it.


They've tried to put the brakes on catalog sales before. That's kinda part of the reason that Skin Diver Magazine went under. Dive Shops refused to stock the magazine on their shelves if it had mail order gear advertisements in it.

Also sometime several years ago a group tried to start a "Dive Merchant Retailers Associaition" by some name... That went to court for some reason and got disbanded.... (I'm not exactly sure of the reasons...)

The point is, the manufacturers want control. Why? they want to maintain pricing control. They surely don't want that to completely flip and have Walmart tell them what the prices will be.

 

[mike_s]

My instructor is kinda saying something similar.

I was discussing equipment with him and he said that many of the online scuba equipment providers (LeisurePro, DiveSport, and other online companies) buy equipment on the "gray" market, or get equipment that was discarded by the manufacturer as defective or of lesser quality, or even produced in asia with a brand name label slapped on.

I have difficulty believing him after reading what I have on this board, but I don't want to call him out on it because I still have 13 weeks of class.

Like Nemrod said, if he's misleading me on equipment purchases, how can I trust that this guy isn't simply full of it on other issues?

Your instructor is just trying to make you feel better about paying higher prices in his store.

Essentially he is lying to you to ensure the sale of equipment. He's looking out for his interest and not yours. That's kinda scary to have your life in the hands of someone like that. What's even worse is that he actually believes the bull he's trying to push on you.

Chances are that he only sells a few regulators a year and the regulator he's trying to sell you has been sitting on the shelf for years. The diaphrams and o-rings could be dry rotting. I've seen this happen with someone who bought a regulator from a dive shop that barely stayed in business and didn't move much in gear sales.

Chances are that most of the stuff in your instructors shop is make in Asia. Why? because that's where most of the gear is made. It might be assembled in the US, but the parts were made in asia.

If you'll notice DIve Sports you referred to is a poster here. Ask around to other members here about them or even go look on their website. They are an authorized dealer for everything they sell.

 

[MikeFerrara]

This idea of dumpster parts is horsefeathers, and I don't mean feathers.

No manufacturer of a regulator is going to buy hundreds of parts and sort through them. Precision parts are most economically made using automated equipment, and are therefore accurate. The key to production efficiency is to get good components and build everything right the first time. Nobody could stay in business buying parts and regularly putting them in a dumpster.

Ask your instructor if he has ever been to a regulator factory. Which one? Ask you instructor if he has ever set foot in any factory at all.

If he is willing to accuse a business or individual of deliberately selling goods that represent a hazard to the user, he'd better be able to prove it.

Automation doesn't always mean higher precision or higher quality. In general, manufacturing is done on high volume parts for the purpose of reducing the direct labor content. It usually has to be a high volume item simply because the automation represents a large up front investment and the manufacturer wants his money back as quick as possibly. there are, of course, exceptions to every rule.

In 17 years of manufacturing related engineering experience, I never once saw a company buy something with the intention of throwing it away. What is done sometimes on a component part that's sold to many different manufacturers is that one company might have a design that call for a very tight tolerance. Then next guys design doesn't require such a tight tolerance. The component manufaturer will sort them and sell them accoring to the tolerance requred. The wider tolerance part, of course, is usually cheaper.

However, that doesn't necessarily tell you anything about which design is actually better.

 

[scubatoys]

In all honesty too... with the price of scrap brass (which most all scuba gear is made from) and the other scrap metals they could get... if a piece does not meet quality specs - it is not thrown in a dumpster... and how many regs could someone possibly make from that if it did happen.

No, if a part does not pass QC, it gets recycled into more material to be used later.

When there are people electrocuting themselves to gather up copper wire (just happened... how low can things get...) do you think people would throw away scrap brass and stainless?

 

[Stu S.]

Hey Mike. What sort of products and components are you mentioning here? I have been in manufacturing 30 years, and can't recall seeing this practice. Maybe I can learn something here.