ayesa
Guest
Hey if I could be in any help let me know. I'm happy to know you're OK. Wish you the best of luck.
Just got bent
- Thread starter Keilidh
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blacknet
Contributor
Hello,
Well I would definately advise to get the usn diving manual and goto vol 2 9-45 change A to 9-9-52 change A (2001 edition) and use the flying after diving as a guideline for use.
FYI it does state:
"wait 24 hours if the dive was a decompression dive" and "exceptional exposure wait 48 hours"
I realize this was NOT a square profile but for things like this you really should run it as a square profile. If you call DAN they run it on the navy tables as well (know when I had my issue they looked on the navy tables)
Since this other diver had a 3 hour no fly time did she take a hit as well or did she wait longer?
Other recomendations you may want to entertain is:
a) start using nitrox (would reduce your nitrogen time)
b) take the advanced nitrox courses (would let you use 50/50 mix and reduce your nitrogen time even further) also teach you more about pre-dive plannings
c) dive with backup tables/slates and get the flying after diving tables
Breathing the green is nothing but good for you
If ever in doubt then ask for the green.
Ed
Well I would definately advise to get the usn diving manual and goto vol 2 9-45 change A to 9-9-52 change A (2001 edition) and use the flying after diving as a guideline for use.
FYI it does state:
"wait 24 hours if the dive was a decompression dive" and "exceptional exposure wait 48 hours"
I realize this was NOT a square profile but for things like this you really should run it as a square profile. If you call DAN they run it on the navy tables as well (know when I had my issue they looked on the navy tables)
Since this other diver had a 3 hour no fly time did she take a hit as well or did she wait longer?
Other recomendations you may want to entertain is:
a) start using nitrox (would reduce your nitrogen time)
b) take the advanced nitrox courses (would let you use 50/50 mix and reduce your nitrogen time even further) also teach you more about pre-dive plannings
c) dive with backup tables/slates and get the flying after diving tables
Breathing the green is nothing but good for you
If ever in doubt then ask for the green.Ed
Keilid-It is possible that the other diver had a somewhat different profile than yours, even if you dived to gethere. that's the benefit of a computer.
Aladin uses old decompression models that were just slightly adjusted. Use a computer that uses RGBM models, at least that's my opinion.
Aladin uses old decompression models that were just slightly adjusted. Use a computer that uses RGBM models, at least that's my opinion.
Thanks for sharing your story Keilidh, and I hope your recovery is quickly complete. Do you mind a couple more questions? Regardless of what your computer gave as a no-fly time, I'm intrigued as to why you ignored the 12/24 hour recommendations for flying after repetitive diving. Were you aware of them? Your computer's manual recommends 3-4 hour intervals when repetitive diving, and caution when flying. Also what sort of aircraft were you flying on? The Air-X assumes a pressurised aircraft, to about 6.500ft. If you are in an unpressurised aircraft or one that is depressurised for some reason, you are highly susceptible to DCS. The aircraft may be slowly depressurised without you realising it (it's amazing how it settles down a rowdy football team and drifts them (and everyone else) off to sleep). This is another reason to observe the 12/24 hour recommendations.
The difference between your time and the other divers time is easily explained because your computer is reactive. Unless you and the other diver were "synchronised diving", there is no way your profiles would be the same. Add to that the fact that her respiration rate is, no doubt, quite different to yours, then the calculation will be quite different. One could argue that the computer should display a default no-fly time of 12 hours if its calculation is under that. But the 12 hours or 24 hours is somewhat like the 40 metres depth and 3 minutes safety stops. They are figures that have been arrived at by one means or another, they are not absolutes, but safe recommendations. Your depth may have reached 15 metres, but the majority of your dive may have been very much shallower than that. It's hard to know without seeing the profile.
The RGBM used in the Cobra is Suunto's latest algorithm. All computers use one algorithm or another. The VERY technical info on them is not easy to obtain, but it makes interesting reading. Whilst it is excellent microbubble technology, it still uses a matrix for temperature and breathing, in spite of having the real time data available to it. The Uwatec's algorithm is a little older, just as the RGBM will be when the coming generation of Uwatecs is released. However the Uwatec uses the real time breathing and temperature data, recalculating every 4 seconds. A good example is a 64 metre wreck dive we do off Sydney. The profile on this dive is always a bucket, but is influenced by temperature and load due to current. My Suunto computer gives me a fairly consistent decompression time, my Air Z will vary considerably depending on conditions.
Research seem to indicate that "undeserved" or in your case could I say "out of the blue" DCS is often related to undiagnosed PFO or other medical condition. Has that been ruled out?
I think you have a very good computer, which you should use as a tool. I don't think it is to blame, as such. I hope you're back diving confidently very soon.
Lesley
PS Hey Joewr UP THE MIGHTY WALLABIES - TRI NATIONS AND BLEDISLOE VICTORS TONIGHT!!!!!
The difference between your time and the other divers time is easily explained because your computer is reactive. Unless you and the other diver were "synchronised diving", there is no way your profiles would be the same. Add to that the fact that her respiration rate is, no doubt, quite different to yours, then the calculation will be quite different. One could argue that the computer should display a default no-fly time of 12 hours if its calculation is under that. But the 12 hours or 24 hours is somewhat like the 40 metres depth and 3 minutes safety stops. They are figures that have been arrived at by one means or another, they are not absolutes, but safe recommendations. Your depth may have reached 15 metres, but the majority of your dive may have been very much shallower than that. It's hard to know without seeing the profile.
The RGBM used in the Cobra is Suunto's latest algorithm. All computers use one algorithm or another. The VERY technical info on them is not easy to obtain, but it makes interesting reading. Whilst it is excellent microbubble technology, it still uses a matrix for temperature and breathing, in spite of having the real time data available to it. The Uwatec's algorithm is a little older, just as the RGBM will be when the coming generation of Uwatecs is released. However the Uwatec uses the real time breathing and temperature data, recalculating every 4 seconds. A good example is a 64 metre wreck dive we do off Sydney. The profile on this dive is always a bucket, but is influenced by temperature and load due to current. My Suunto computer gives me a fairly consistent decompression time, my Air Z will vary considerably depending on conditions.
Research seem to indicate that "undeserved" or in your case could I say "out of the blue" DCS is often related to undiagnosed PFO or other medical condition. Has that been ruled out?
I think you have a very good computer, which you should use as a tool. I don't think it is to blame, as such. I hope you're back diving confidently very soon.
Lesley
PS Hey Joewr UP THE MIGHTY WALLABIES - TRI NATIONS AND BLEDISLOE VICTORS TONIGHT!!!!!
LesleyDSO:
Thank you for taking the time and effort in responding.
I am aware of the 12/24 flying rule, I was forced into taking an earlier flight because of unforseen circumstances. The morale is: no matter what happens or how urgent you need to fly, don't do it and wait instead.
Regarding your second question, I flew in a pressurized Airbus jetliner. I don't know what was the cabin pressure. But no different from a Boeing, etc...
I still didn't download my profile from my Aladin, but I was conservative anyway (avoided any Yo-Yos, took a 3 min safety stop, etc...).
As for PFO, I'm PFO-free, no problem here. No other medical conditions or complaints.
What MIGHT be the problem was fatigue and the heat (it was quite hot that day), and I had to wash the gear while under a hot sun, and drove for some time while it was hot. There was also a problem with the aircraft's airconditioning (not working), even the Captain apologized about it. It was a rough-day in general!
RECOVERY UPDATE:
================
Just to update everyone, I had six HBO sessions (details below). These are NOT US Navy treatments, since the hospital I went to (KFSH) does not normally use them (I'm the fourth-ever DCS patient, the chamber is used for wound-healing and CO-poisoning mainly).
I'm recovered at about 99%. The only sensation I have is VERY mild tingling in two of my toes. This sensation comes and goes, I usually feel the tingling in the evening, and it disappears in the morning. No big deal.
I have to mention that the HBO sessions I got were not designed for treating DCS. Both DAN or the GFH are not satisfied about the treatment that I received (insufficient).
sessions 1 to 4:
20 min O2 descent + 30 min O2 + 10 min air-break + 30 O2 + 10 air + 30 O2 + 10 air + 30 O2 + 20 O2 ascent. Pressure 2.5 atm, total O2 time 120 min.
session 5:
like above but less 30 min O2 and less 10 min air.
session 6 (upon my request):
like session 5, but pressure was 3 atm.
I was "slightly" intoxicated with O2, headache, dizziness, blurry vision, numb arms. It cleared after a few hours, and almost fully resolved my toes.
Still I called DAN, who were supportive as usual. Dr. Silya (not sure about the spelling) adviced to get a US Navy Table 6 session, and call another hospital (GFH) in another city for assisting my current hospital (KFSH). I'm pretty scared to do another session, especially alone in a monochamber!!! Although DAN recommends it, but I don''t think I'll do it.
I just called the GFH's diving doctor, and he thinks that this tingling is merely a tissue-healing process, and that the tingling should subside by time. He does not believe there are microbubbles left.
The GFH diving doctor recommends that I gradually resume diving after three months, so the the tissue is recovered and is ready for gradual "gas-exchange rehabilitation." That is, since previously-affected tissue is more susceptible for recurrent DCS hits (like a sports injury).
As my faith in the medical community was shaken, I was considering diving shallow with a slow ascent to get rid of any remaining microbubbles (if they exist) and take the "I'll fix myself" attitude, but the doctor's words about tissue damage and gas-exchange ability (or lack of) got me to reconsider. Quite a dilemma isn't it...lol
PLEASE:
=======
Be careful with your diving and don't ever get hit. HBO sessions are complex and dangerous. They can create additional problems for patients. So dive with maximum care. There is a lot of speculation and trial-and-error in medicine, and doctors don't give enough attention to residual effects, its a low priority for them (not life-threatening), but a high priority for a diver!
Thank you for taking the time and effort in responding.
I am aware of the 12/24 flying rule, I was forced into taking an earlier flight because of unforseen circumstances. The morale is: no matter what happens or how urgent you need to fly, don't do it and wait instead.
Regarding your second question, I flew in a pressurized Airbus jetliner. I don't know what was the cabin pressure. But no different from a Boeing, etc...
I still didn't download my profile from my Aladin, but I was conservative anyway (avoided any Yo-Yos, took a 3 min safety stop, etc...).
As for PFO, I'm PFO-free, no problem here. No other medical conditions or complaints.
What MIGHT be the problem was fatigue and the heat (it was quite hot that day), and I had to wash the gear while under a hot sun, and drove for some time while it was hot. There was also a problem with the aircraft's airconditioning (not working), even the Captain apologized about it. It was a rough-day in general!
RECOVERY UPDATE:
================
Just to update everyone, I had six HBO sessions (details below). These are NOT US Navy treatments, since the hospital I went to (KFSH) does not normally use them (I'm the fourth-ever DCS patient, the chamber is used for wound-healing and CO-poisoning mainly).
I'm recovered at about 99%. The only sensation I have is VERY mild tingling in two of my toes. This sensation comes and goes, I usually feel the tingling in the evening, and it disappears in the morning. No big deal.
I have to mention that the HBO sessions I got were not designed for treating DCS. Both DAN or the GFH are not satisfied about the treatment that I received (insufficient).
sessions 1 to 4:
20 min O2 descent + 30 min O2 + 10 min air-break + 30 O2 + 10 air + 30 O2 + 10 air + 30 O2 + 20 O2 ascent. Pressure 2.5 atm, total O2 time 120 min.
session 5:
like above but less 30 min O2 and less 10 min air.
session 6 (upon my request):
like session 5, but pressure was 3 atm.
I was "slightly" intoxicated with O2, headache, dizziness, blurry vision, numb arms. It cleared after a few hours, and almost fully resolved my toes.
Still I called DAN, who were supportive as usual. Dr. Silya (not sure about the spelling) adviced to get a US Navy Table 6 session, and call another hospital (GFH) in another city for assisting my current hospital (KFSH). I'm pretty scared to do another session, especially alone in a monochamber!!! Although DAN recommends it, but I don''t think I'll do it.
I just called the GFH's diving doctor, and he thinks that this tingling is merely a tissue-healing process, and that the tingling should subside by time. He does not believe there are microbubbles left.
The GFH diving doctor recommends that I gradually resume diving after three months, so the the tissue is recovered and is ready for gradual "gas-exchange rehabilitation." That is, since previously-affected tissue is more susceptible for recurrent DCS hits (like a sports injury).
As my faith in the medical community was shaken, I was considering diving shallow with a slow ascent to get rid of any remaining microbubbles (if they exist) and take the "I'll fix myself" attitude, but the doctor's words about tissue damage and gas-exchange ability (or lack of) got me to reconsider. Quite a dilemma isn't it...lol
PLEASE:
=======
Be careful with your diving and don't ever get hit. HBO sessions are complex and dangerous. They can create additional problems for patients. So dive with maximum care. There is a lot of speculation and trial-and-error in medicine, and doctors don't give enough attention to residual effects, its a low priority for them (not life-threatening), but a high priority for a diver!
blacknet
Contributor
Hello,
I thought the "undeserved" term was a thing of the past as NO PERSON *DESERVES* to take a hit (I wouldn't wish a dci hit on my worse enemy).
As for the altitude consideration that would seem acceptable. Running his profile on the us navy flying after divng tables if you went to 8,000 feet the surface interval (as previously stated) is 14 hours and 9 mins. If you went to 5,000 feet the surface interval is 5 hours and 37 mins. If you went to 6,000 feet the surface interval is 8 hours and 5 mins. As you can see the 5 hour time MAY be valid but it depends on the altitude the computer runs it to. Would definately be worth checking into that (I would think that all computers SHOULD run it for commercial airlines at 8,000 feet) would also be worth checking to see if the altitude considerations could be changed.
As for bubbles goes. Bubbles will lodge in capilaries and rupture them, blocking blood flow. Then the blood will thicken (become sticky due to the bubbles in the bloodstream) This is the primary reason for HBO. If DAN and other diving doctors thinks you are receiving inproper treatment then there is a chance you MAY not have a good or full recovery, or at least take longer to heal. If it was me I would be talking to the right people and try to get the right treatment or go elsewhere where I could get the right treatment.
Ed
Ed
I thought the "undeserved" term was a thing of the past as NO PERSON *DESERVES* to take a hit (I wouldn't wish a dci hit on my worse enemy).
As for the altitude consideration that would seem acceptable. Running his profile on the us navy flying after divng tables if you went to 8,000 feet the surface interval (as previously stated) is 14 hours and 9 mins. If you went to 5,000 feet the surface interval is 5 hours and 37 mins. If you went to 6,000 feet the surface interval is 8 hours and 5 mins. As you can see the 5 hour time MAY be valid but it depends on the altitude the computer runs it to. Would definately be worth checking into that (I would think that all computers SHOULD run it for commercial airlines at 8,000 feet) would also be worth checking to see if the altitude considerations could be changed.
As for bubbles goes. Bubbles will lodge in capilaries and rupture them, blocking blood flow. Then the blood will thicken (become sticky due to the bubbles in the bloodstream) This is the primary reason for HBO. If DAN and other diving doctors thinks you are receiving inproper treatment then there is a chance you MAY not have a good or full recovery, or at least take longer to heal. If it was me I would be talking to the right people and try to get the right treatment or go elsewhere where I could get the right treatment.
Ed
Ed
Keilidh & Scubaboard family...
I cannot count the number of emergency medical calls I have attended where the patient is in DENIAL.
This post has got me to thinking...how can we fight this very human failing of ours? As divers, our #1 weapon is knowledge. We must be able to recognize signs & symptoms in order to act. Now we need a tool, some form of self-assessment system we can apply as individuals to our own circumstances.
As a D.M.T. in the commercial diving industry, I utilized a quick but thorough test of gross sensory & motor function called the ":5 rapid neurological", as part of an overall assessment of a diver suspected of suffering d.c.s. It is a quick but thorough head-to-toe assessment. When properly applied, it can prove invaluable in identifying neurological deficiencies. Unlike our unfortunate son Keilidh, symptomatic commercial divers could immediately be given a "test of pressure"20 @ 60') to see if their condition responded to hbo therapy. No opportunity for denial there.
It seems to me we must convince ourselves of the plight we fear to be true. It is possible to perform most of this neurological test on oneself. What if we augmented this procedure with some simple cognitive self-testing, such as writing a paragraph in our best script &/or doing simple arithmetic. Perhaps by focusing on our physical & mental condition in a simple but thorough self-appraisal, we will discover sufficient irregularities to convince ourselves that the worst is true.
With the collective might of the Scubaboard fraternity, I'd wager we could create a standard self-assessment test of significant worth...
Your thoughts?
Regards,
D.S.D.
I cannot count the number of emergency medical calls I have attended where the patient is in DENIAL.
This post has got me to thinking...how can we fight this very human failing of ours? As divers, our #1 weapon is knowledge. We must be able to recognize signs & symptoms in order to act. Now we need a tool, some form of self-assessment system we can apply as individuals to our own circumstances.
As a D.M.T. in the commercial diving industry, I utilized a quick but thorough test of gross sensory & motor function called the ":5 rapid neurological", as part of an overall assessment of a diver suspected of suffering d.c.s. It is a quick but thorough head-to-toe assessment. When properly applied, it can prove invaluable in identifying neurological deficiencies. Unlike our unfortunate son Keilidh, symptomatic commercial divers could immediately be given a "test of pressure"
20 @ 60') to see if their condition responded to hbo therapy. No opportunity for denial there.It seems to me we must convince ourselves of the plight we fear to be true. It is possible to perform most of this neurological test on oneself. What if we augmented this procedure with some simple cognitive self-testing, such as writing a paragraph in our best script &/or doing simple arithmetic. Perhaps by focusing on our physical & mental condition in a simple but thorough self-appraisal, we will discover sufficient irregularities to convince ourselves that the worst is true.
With the collective might of the Scubaboard fraternity, I'd wager we could create a standard self-assessment test of significant worth...
Your thoughts?
Regards,
D.S.D.
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