LDS Incompetence

[AfterDark]

That's a good point, but I would note that if the OP had to drive 4 hours to get to a dive shop, there might not be as many options as if he was living in the Florida Keys!

Zip seals would be the way to go for any shop doing a lot of dry suit training.



Why do you need "certification" for diving? Plenty of the old timers here learned how to dive in just that way, by finding a buddy who showed them the ropes.

I guess there are shortcuts for very experienced divers with mentors willing to act as instructors without getting paid or being trained to teach, but I would be careful about that. It's not unheard of for a dry suit to be implicated in an accident, especially with new users....

When I bought my dry suit I used the owners manual instructions and my own experience to learn what little needs to be learned to dive a dry suit. Formal instruction to dive a dry suit is silly IMO.

The OP would be better off renting pool time and self teach, considering how much has been spent already.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

[/QUOTE]Why do you need "certification" for diving? Plenty of the old timers here learned how to dive in just that way, by finding a buddy who showed them the ropes.

I guess there are shortcuts for very experienced divers with mentors willing to act as instructors without getting paid or being trained to teach, but I would be careful about that. It's not unheard of for a dry suit to be implicated in an accident, especially with new users....[/QUOTE]

I didn't say "cert for diving" Dr Mike was making a point there. Again I ask, why do you need a "certification" to dive a drysuit? It's thermal protection. It's not rocket science. In actuality, scuba "certification" is not a legal obligation. It is self imposed by the industry. As is the VIP for scuba bottles. The instructor in question here is much more inept at teaching than a good mentor. But, some scuba certification agency gave this person a card saying this person was qualified to instruct and certify. The "he is new" doesn't cut it. Yes, and instructor will get better at "presentation" over time. But, when the "certified instructor" leaves the IDC/IE that person is said to be competent. I'll take a good mentor that actually dives the equipment and dives that are being mentored than a weekend warrior instructor who takes a day or 2 to teach a certain discipline. A mentor has experience which means lots of hands on time with what is being mentored. A solid instructor should dive and use what they teach too. There are those who do (use them) and those who don't and are looking for the next nickle (don't use them). The whole politically correct term of "certification" was been bastardized into making people think someone is qualified. This "false sense of liability" has gone out to left field and has sullied our courts and nation. A good solid and experienced instructor is worth their weight in gold. But a solid mentor is nothing to sneeze at either.

 

[nimoh]

I don't own a drysuit yet, wanted to rent first, see which brand I might fancy and don't have any friends up here who drysuit dive to just rent suit and jump in with. I don't know sites and we've got some gnarly tides so would like to use some common sense and caution. Some shops won't rent gear without card. So thought, just take the ---- class, check it out, see if I liked the cold water part etc. What my post was about was LDS incompetence with a customer/student. Yes, this polar bear is ticked about time/money wasted, not once but twice for travel, hotel, this time cost of class, rental gear etc. and still nothing to show for it. Pool skills nothing to it, just couldn't handle boa constrictor strangulation. You can be very sure I will not be purchasing drysuit from LDS!!!

based on what you wrote, you should have received a full refund.

 

[doctormike]

Again I ask, why do you need a "certification" to dive a drysuit? It's thermal protection.

I'm assuming that you are a dry suit diver, so you know that it's more than thermal protection, and that the reason for training in specific techniques of venting are because you can easily get yourself into a situation that becomes an uncontrolled ascent with one.

The whole politically correct term of "certification" was been bastardized into making people think someone is qualified.

I'm not sure what you mean by politically correct here, but I guess you are saying that you have a problem with dive training as it is currently done in this country?

 

[tracydr]

They say use LDS....Signed up 2 years ago for Drysuit class, drove 4 hours to LDS, get there and instructor sick but they neglected to notify me (out cost of 2 hotel nights). OK, tried again this weekend, signed up for class, had confirmed in writing in advance proper size drysuit, undergarments, yes, they had drygloves, etc etc. Got a call 5 minutes before driving 4 hours again class was cancelled as they had "lost the pool". (How you lose pool time when about 10 in area you can use is beyond me). I had already paid hotel online again and informed them of this. They said "Oh, well....call so and so, or so and so instructors and see if they can do it". I told them it would be better if THEY called their instructors, figured it out and then let me know. Get a call back 15 minutes later, yup, class is on again.

Arrived at shop to grab tanks, try on gear and they "didn't have gear" I had requested and reserved in writing in advance. Some newbie instructor handed me a 3mm hood and 3mm wet gloves for diving 35-40 degree water. I informed him Alaska is not the same as Hawaii but he missed connotation. Wrong size undergarment. Had to "ask" for weights. Red flags going off all over the place but trying to stay congenial and not bite someone. Neck seal strangulating, they didn't want to trim neck seal. I finally got them to try (took off a trillionith of a nanometer), still tight but thought I had better jump in the pool and try it out before pushing issue.

Met "my" instructor at pool (different guy), no class stuff first which I thought was weird, although I know not much to it. Threw on gear, jumped in and still felt strangulated, like a boa was closing in fast. Told this instructor seal too tight but never offered to resize. Did all the skills stuff no problem but got sick, face red as a beet, felt like I strangling even though reg breathing fine. Jumped out of suit before I passed out. So much for that.

Told this instructor I had reserved equipment and it was not provided, had requested dry gloves, told him about hood. Weight belt they had provided did not fit (no harness available). Also about them telling me day before pool wasn't available and then 15 minutes later it was. He said that I had been given a line of BS because they had pool all the time as he also had an OW class in shallow end (At the same time of his drysuit class in the deep end). Hmmm...anyone getting a drift here. He also said he knew shop had right size undergarment and didn't know why it wasn't provided to me. (Now I am really getting ticked).

I stripped out of my gear, said I would not be risking my life doing open water dives with ill fitting gerry rigged gear with neck seal that didn't fit properly. It was so tight I was close to throwing up. I know they didn't want to trim it as then "might" not fit next rental customer. Was thinking of buying full drysuit package if I liked gear. Going to have little "chat" with dive shop owner as someone with less experience is going to get killed going along with this ------!

Heading down to Florida later and will go talk to some cave divers who know all about drysuits and can hopefully help me get me drysuit certified without trying to give me a line of BS and kill me off with ill fitting gear. Third time the charm hopefully. There are no DUI dog days or other drysuit try out days here, unfortunately.

Don't even talk to me about using LDS......Cost me a whole bunch of money and nothing to show for it!

I'm sorry your drysuit class was so horrible. You'd think,in AK, instructors and shops would know more about them.
I really enjoyed my PADI drysuit class and felt it was probably some of the best training I've had. I've had the same instructor for all my classes except OW so it wasn't because of the instructor, who's my husband.
That said, I'd be interested in taking the drysuit primer from a GUE or UTD instructor sometime to compare.
One of my LDS's showed me 1mm and Lycra skins when I asked if they had drysuit undergarments in stock!

---------- Post added January 22nd, 2014 at 12:40 PM ----------

Yes I agree, that's what I did and don't regret it. I just got some good advice from people and read up on it. Main points are to practice the "get out of feet up" situation, and the use of minimal air to prevent squeeze, making sure you dump as required on the way back up. Once you practice it and its second nature, not a real issue. I would only suggest a course if you are not a confident diver, or a new diver perhaps.

Stuck inflator hose and getting BC off/on underwater,too. The book is actually decent and worth reading,too.

---------- Post added January 22nd, 2014 at 12:44 PM ----------

Why do you need "certification" for diving? Plenty of the old timers here learned how to dive in just that way, by finding a buddy who showed them the ropes.

I guess there are shortcuts for very experienced divers with mentors willing to act as instructors without getting paid or being trained to teach, but I would be careful about that. It's not unheard of for a dry suit to be implicated in an accident, especially with new users....

"Again I ask, why do you need a "certification" to dive a drysuit? It's thermal protection. It's not rocket science. In actuality, scuba "certification" is not a legal obligation. It is self imposed by the industry. As is the VIP for scuba bottles. The instructor in question here is much more inept at teaching than a good mentor. But, some scuba certification agency gave this person a card saying this person was qualified to instruct and certify. The "he is new" doesn't cut it. Yes, and instructor will get better at "presentation" over time. But, when the "certified instructor" leaves the IDC/IE that person is said to be competent. I'll take a good mentor that actually dives the equipment and dives that are being mentored than a weekend warrior instructor who takes a day or 2 to teach a certain discipline. A mentor has experience which means lots of hands on time with what is being mentored. A solid instructor should dive and use what they teach too. There are those who do (use them) and those who don't and are looking for the next nickle (don't use them). The whole politically correct term of "certification" was been bastardized into making people think someone is qualified. This "false sense of liability" has gone out to left field and has sullied our courts and nation. A good solid and experienced instructor is worth their weight in gold. But a solid mentor is nothing to sneeze at either.[/QUOTE]
I think Quero's death, possibly due to drysuit issues and weight issues would be one reason to take a good class.
My drysuit, a Diving Concept, had the most worthless manual. Actually, I wouldn't even call it a manual. I downloaded a Santos manual, which is much better.

 

[Divegoose]

When I purchased my first dry suit, the local shop owner took me out and did a few dives with me :glad: (pre dry suit specialty course) We sorted out any problems, and I quickly became comfortable in the dry suit. I also use ankle weights to keep my feet weighted down so that I don't become buoyant feet first. :blinking: Did a couple of feet first ascents from shallow water while learning to use the dry suit so went to the ankle weight option.

Divegoose

 

[tracydr]

I feel like proper weighting, proper training, good fitting suit and "negative" fins are a better option than ankle weights. I can imagine ankle weights cause cramps and increase air consumption, plus are likely to keep you feet down rather than in proper trim.
With proper fit and proper weighting, feet up ascents should not be a big problem.
During my class, I did a few extra dives as I had an uncontrolled ascent which sort of unnerved me. ( plus I felt I needed more experience in cold,dark water. I had a couple of other issues, unrelated to the drysuit, like mask flooding and kelp entanglement, which caused me some worry due to lack of recent cold water experience. Luckily, my husband was my instructor, so he was more than happy to make sure that I was properly trained.

 

[Latitude 59]

Was not sharing experience to bash "all" LDS's, nor was it inferred they are "all" bad, simply the one I happened to pick was incompetent as described in many ways. The reason for the "card" is some shops will not rent drysuits without showing drysuit card (so some wannabe idiot doesn't go out and kill themselves with rental equipment). I plan to pursue to completion.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

I'm assuming that you are a dry suit diver, so you know that it's more than thermal protection, and that the reason for training in specific techniques of venting are because you can easily get yourself into a situation that becomes an uncontrolled ascent with one.




I'm not sure what you mean by politically correct here, but I guess you are saying that you have a problem with dive training as it is currently done in this country?

I am a drysuit diver. I don't use it for buoyancy. I use it for thermal protection. I use my BC for buoyancy and only relieve the squeeze in my suit. As far as training, it works ok. But we put a lot of weight into diploma's, certification cards and such when it does not always equate to mastering a skill or even experience. It generally means the student passed the minimum requirements based on the instructors experience. The shame is I watch cavern, sidemount and other instructors who don't dive the skills they teach, except when they teach. A good instructor is worth their weight in gold. So is a good mentor. Adding liability to a mentor can be a stretch when this sport is based on personal responsibility. I may have come across poorly when I posted. I believe in training but there are a lot of poor instructors that carry the blessings of their agencies. The sad part is they may never know they are not good instructors. Students have no way of knowing either. But, a drysuit is not a hard skill to master with the right help. It doesn't require a certification, by law or training agency standards. It is offered but not required if you own your own suit. I guess that was my real point. Mark

 

[doctormike]

I am a drysuit diver. I don't use it for buoyancy. I use it for thermal protection. I use my BC for buoyancy and only relieve the squeeze in my suit. As far as training, it works ok. But we put a lot of weight into diploma's, certification cards and such when it does not always equate to mastering a skill or even experience. It generally means the student passed the minimum requirements based on the instructors experience. The shame is I watch cavern, sidemount and other instructors who don't dive the skills they teach, except when they teach. A good instructor is worth their weight in gold. So is a good mentor. Adding liability to a mentor can be a stretch when this sport is based on personal responsibility. I may have come across poorly when I posted. I believe in training but there are a lot of poor instructors that carry the blessings of their agencies. The sad part is they may never know they are not good instructors. Students have no way of knowing either. But, a drysuit is not a hard skill to master with the right help. It doesn't require a certification, by law or training agency standards. It is offered but not required if you own your own suit. I guess that was my real point. Mark

Sure, I understand, and I didn't mean to sound snarky... a good analogy would be double tanks. I switched to doubles two years ago, and am only starting technical training this year. There is no certification card for double tanks, and if there was I might feel the same way that some people do about dry suit certifications. There is lots of gear that can contribute to an accident if you don't know what you are doing, but don't require separate certifications: doubles, scooters, spearguns... and cameras!

But seriously (because a lot of new divers read these threads), it is definitely possible to have a serious accident because of poor dry suit training (as tracydr pointed out above). A dry suit is only redundant buoyancy, no one should be using it as primary lift. But just because you put the minimum amount of gas in a suit doesn't mean that an inexperienced diver would't over inflate, or not vent adequately as his or her feet were rising, and quickly get into an uncontrollable ascent situation. It can and does happen.

To the larger point, yes, a good mentor is worth more than a bad instructor. But to a new diver looking for training, agencies and certification are the only way that I can think of standardizing training, so that there is at least a minimum level of competency on the part of the student and the instructor. Without that, you would might not really know if your golden mentor was any good or completely off base.