LDS vs. Online

[Al Mialkovsky]

I generally don't participate much in this LDS/Online discussions much any longer. At the dive shop I instruct for they've recently terminated relationships with a couple of customers who are mostly online shoppers.

I was there for one when after getting his complete system online, after we spent hours with him talking about gear and sizing him, he came back to try on a wetsuit. We referred him to Leisure pro for sizing.

These people who abuse the dive shops can go elsewhere. We're very busy and don't need to spend time with the internet types. They can go to the next county for their fills/hydros/training (only shop in our county) and join that shop for their weekend dives, or join Leisurepro or some other online shop for activities.

Some of you make it sound like the brick and mortar shops are gouging their customers because they won't come close to internet prices. It shows how little you know about operating a business. Why would you want to join the race to the bottom?

Gouging is what is being done with gas prices, not dive gear.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I've seen customers come in to try on a wet suit and then buy the same make and model on-line (and then show up on the weekend on the shop's courtesy dive boat with the new suit we did not sell them). The irony here of course is that some companies change the cut and/or their suppliers periodically so if the two suits in question are not from the same lot or recent vintage, the results are often not what the in-store tryer/on-line buyer expected. Which of course just makes might little heart bleed for the jerk. They may also discover that we've suddenly decided the boat is full already that day.

A local dive shop deals on a low volume (a very low volume compared to most on-line sellers) and has to pay out a lot of cash upfront to stock items in the store where they may sit for 6 months or more until they sell. The LDS has to pay to be able to provide the convenience of letting you see, feel and try on items, and to allow you the immediate gratification of walking out of the store with it right now, and exchanging the item right now if you discover something wrong with it.

If the store does not stock an item a customer wants, runs out of an item, does not offer excellent customer service or expertise, does not swap out items in the store if they are in some way defective or don't fit, does not take trade ins on used items, or provide any other service that customers expect, they will complain about it and will often go to someplace like scubaboard and post their displeasure.

But many of those same divers are the ones who complain that they have to pay 10-40% more at a local dive shop than they will at an on-line store where they get nearly zero tech assitance in most cases, cannot try it on or try it out before buying, cannot trade in their old regulator or BC and where they will have to ship any item back to the on-line seller and incur a minimum 2 week delay for any exchange. They seem to mis the point, that the higher level of service costs money.

Or perhaps not, as often their justification is to "use" the convenience and services of the LDS and then deny the LDS any compensation for that convenience or service at all by giving the sale to an on-line seller who does nothing more than offer the same item (often without a warranty) at cut rate prices. And if, for example, they buy a regulator that is not properly adjusted or needs a new seat from setting on a shelf too long, the worst of the on-line customer ilk bring it to the LDS and then have the gall to complain that the LDS charged them to fix their "new" regulator.

It is most definitely an issue of ethics as if you try in store and buy on line, you are taking something without paying for it, which if we were talking about a "good" rather than a service woudl be shoplifting, but while it is not legally a crime you are still taking something of value without paying for it.

In my opinion, if you want on-line low prices, then buy all means buy on line. But do it honestly buy taking your chances with fit, etc, and by not abusing the LDS by using them to help you decide what you want without giving them the benefit of the sale. And when you have a problem with your on-line purchase, expect your local dealer to charge you for the same services they provide their customers for free.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

I And if, for example, they buy a regulator that is not properly adjusted or needs a new seat form setting on a shelf too long, the worst of the on-line customer ilk bring it to the LDS and have the gall to complain that the LDS charged them to fix their "new" regulator.

when you have a problem with your on-line purchase, expect your local dealer to charge you for the same services they provide their customers for free.

Happened this week in our shop, yet again. They couldn't believe we'd charge them for a setup to begin with. All our tech did was connect a couple of hoses and guage it for them. Of course the IP and cracking pressures were way off so he adjusted them.

Then of course we wouldn't fill their online purchased tank without a vis.

waaaaa

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Using a LDS for sizing and walking out without any intention of purchasing is unethical.

What's ethics got to do with it? If the you try on the item and the size is right but you find the price to expensive ... are you "morally" obligated to buy? Shouldn't the decision to buy be based on price and service provided? I'm trying a fin on and find his price double that from what's available on line ... it doesn't make sense to buy from him. Now if the LDS helps in sizing a drysuit ... that's something different .

Personally, I prefer to give my business to a LDS for important life apparatus (e.g., regs, computers, etc.) but find the best price for consumerables (e.g., snorkels, fins, masks, etc.). More importantly, any item that has to be serviced should be bought at a LDS. Besides, Keeping your LDS in business IS important (and there have been tons of discussion threads on this subject).

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's usually risky to make general statements but with dive shops it might be a little different.

A while back my wife and I were in the Chicago area and had an afternoon to kill. We took a phone book and drove around visiting dive shops...there are a ton of them there. I wasn't looking to buy anything...just checking out shops.

Now I didn't wear a sign that said I was a former dive shop owner, cave diver, trimix diver, former instructor or anything like that. I just walked in to look and chat. You wouldn't believe the massive amount of dumb **** I had said to me in that single afternoon! Expertise? I found NONE on that little adventure. So manu dive shop personel whether owners, instructors or what have you will make total boobs of themselves in short order if talking to any one other than an absolute beginner.

Service?
Most shops make it by selling cheap certifications to create a market for equipment packages that they try to unload on people before they wise up or quit diving all together. The few who stick around are pushed to become divemasters or instructors who provide the cheap (or free) labor that enables the shop to give away classes. It's run like some kind of pyramid scam or like Amway or something. They have all sorts of scare tactics to try to force you to bring them your business and the manufacturers help in doing it...ie trying to restrict the purchase of parts or service information...refusing to service equipment baught from other sources ect.

I have one simple test for any dive shop. When I walk in or call and ask to purchase 20 rebuild kits to get me through the next season ...and yes I go through that many when I'm working and diving a lot (which I'm not right now)... I need them to ring up the sale and say thatk you without giving me any guff about it being against the manufacturers policy because I know better! Otherwise, our business is finished...unless of course I need to try something on which isn't too often. You don't need to tryy on a harness. You just cut some webing from a role, drysuits are best ordered custom fitted for most people and I know what size wet suit I wear...although custom is better there too. So what's to try on? ok, maybe a mask but there are only a few on the market that fit me and I already know which ones they are so I'd likely just order another of the same.

Dive shops could be a real asset to beginners but they need to start offering real training, start charging real money for it and lay off the BS when it comes to equipment and service.

 

[Jeff Toorish]

I should clarify...

My real point of discussion was not the ethics or morals of going to the LDS to check out the item and then buying online.

It was more that if we don't support and patronize the LDS, it's going to go out of business. I understand the notion of competition and supply and demand...but you know, WalMart isn't going to add a SCUBA section anytime soon because it is too technical. But the online stores are, in a way, the WalMart of the dive world. They have vast selections and lower prices. But, in the end, they can wind up putting the local shop out of business.

Safe Diving

Jeff

 

[redacted]

It is most definitely an issue of ethics as if you try in store and buy on line, you are taking something without paying for it, which if we were talking about a "good" rather than a service woudl be shoplifting, but while it is not legally a crime you are still taking something of value without paying for it.

In my opinion, if you want on-line low prices, then buy all means buy on line. But do it honestly buy taking your chances with fit, etc, and by not abusing the LDS by using them to help you decide what you want without giving them the benefit of the sale. And when you have a problem with your on-line purchase, expect your local dealer to charge you for the same services they provide their customers for free.

I'm not sure where the biggest ethical shortcoming lies: With the customers who take advantage of th LDS or the LDSs who take advantage of the customers. Or if the things we are talking about should even be considered ethical shortcomings rather than smart business and shopping practices.

When I shop for things that have negotiable prices, I do my price and other research first, online. Then I go looking. I take up my time and the salespersons time. It helps demonstrate and obtain a commitment to the sale. I try them, test them, inspect them, I make my selections -- then we talk price. If the business loses the sale at that point, I don't feel I have abused anyone. The car dealer expects it, and so should the LDS (unless he is the only one in the county, I guess). It is what happens when prices are a negotiable variable and showrooms are "no charge".

 

[PhilEllis]

I run a brick and mortar dive store in a small town in Alabama. I also operate out of this same store an online store with a fairly good selection and fairly aggressive prices. I would agree that it is a sticky situation when a buyer calls my toll-free number and questions us about wetsuit or bc fit, then states that they intend to go to the local store and investigate sizing and "call us back". In EVERY one of these situations, I always suggest that while at the local store, why don't they make a good deal on the item with the local store and save themselves some time and effort. I would NEVER tell an online customer to size at a local store, then call us for the sale.

That being said, we have dozens of local customers come into our store who are using us simply for sizing and information. Even though we operate an online store with great prices, and offer those great prices to our walk-in customers, many simply prefer purchasing from some particular on-line store. In those cases, we help them anyway with the sizing and information. After all, they may buy from us next time.

Running a small business has lots of ups and downs, lots of "win" and "lose" propositions. The important thing is to keep your eye on the long term strategic goal. You must offer great customers service, have knowledgable employees, have a broad inventory, and offer competitive prices. This is a must for ANY business, not just the dive store industry.

Just as a piece of information.....our store has an inventory in excess of $450,000. This is five, six, or seven times the typical inventory of most local scuba stores. The online side of my business costs MORE TO OPERATE than the brick and mortar store. That's right....MY ONLINE STORE COSTS MORE TO OPERATE THEN MY BRICK AND MORTAR STORE! Those that don't understand that simply don't understand e-commerce. We spend HOURS AND HOURS per week on the telephone giving the same information to our online customers that we typically give to our walk-in customers. These conversations are on our dime...all of our online customers call us toll-free. Many conversations with our online customers last 30, 45 minutes.....often an hour or longer. These are not conversations with minimum wage employees. These are conversations with well paid, full time employees. So remember to temper all of your talk about brick and mortar being so expensive and online being so cheap from an operating perspective. The price difference from local store to onine store is based only on two things.......sales volume and buying clout....not lower operating expense. A local store that can do the sales volume that an online store acheives can easily match the online prices.....in fact, they can BEAT them because they don't have the added cost of the online store!

With all of that said....if you go to your local store ONLY to get sizing on an item you ALREADY intend to purchase from the online store.....call someone else. lol. That's not the online business I want. Remember, I run a local dive store. I have great sympathy for the local store problems. Soon, all of the local stores will change their business model and expand to marketing methods that expand their potential customer base. Thats that problem with the local dive store model....potential customer base. That is why MANY of us local stores have added the on-line option. We are trying to increase our potential customers base, increase our sales, and improve our clout with our suppliers. THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT RESULT IN LOWER PRICES FOR YOU! Oh well, just my opinion. Thanks.

Phil Ellis
Dive Sports Online
www.divesports.com
(800) 601-DIVE

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've seen customers come in to try on a wet suit and then buy the same make and model on-line (and then show up on the weekend on the shop's courtesy dive boat with the new suit we did not sell them). The irony here of course is that some companies change the cut and/or their suppliers periodically so if the two suits in question are not from the same lot or recent vintage, the results are often not what the in-store tryer/on-line buyer expected. Which of course just makes might little heart bleed for the jerk. They may also discover that we've suddenly decided the boat is full already that day.

Wouldn't it be easier to compete if the manufacturers didn't restrict your prices? Maybe folks would buy from you then. Who's the jerk here? This is pretty close to the scare tactics I was talking about..."you should buy from me because our suppliers aren't any good and a medium may not really be a medium!" If your suppliers can't make two lots of suits the same you need a different supplier...I don't need to pay more! After 15 years in manufacturing engineering it's best they don't try to BS me here either!

A local dive shop deals on a low volume (a very low volume compared to most on-line sellers) and has to pay out a lot of cash upfront to stock items in the store where they may sit for 6 months or more until they sell. The LDS has to pay to be able to provide the convenience of letting you see, feel and try on items, and to allow you the immediate gratification of walking out of the store with it right now, and exchanging the item right now if you discover something wrong with it.

The cost of doing business. It's not my job to go out of my way to make their business plan work.

If the store does not stock an item a customer wants, runs out of an item, does not offer excellent customer service or expertise, does not swap out items in the store if they are in some way defective or don't fit, does not take trade ins on used items, or provide any other service that customers expect, they will complain about it and will often go to someplace like scubaboard and post their displeasure.

But many of those same divers are the ones who complain that they have to pay 10-40% more at a local dive shop than they will at an on-line store where they get nearly zero tech assitance in most cases, cannot try it on or try it out before buying, cannot trade in their old regulator or BC and where they will have to ship any item back to the on-line seller and incur a minimum 2 week delay for any exchange. They seem to mis the point, that the higher level of service costs money.

Or perhaps not, as often their justification is to "use" the convenience and services of the LDS and then deny the LDS any compensation for that convenience or service at all by giving the sale to an on-line seller who does nothing more than offer the same item (often without a warranty) at cut rate prices. And if, for example, they buy a regulator that is not properly adjusted or needs a new seat from setting on a shelf too long, the worst of the on-line customer ilk bring it to the LDS and then have the gall to complain that the LDS charged them to fix their "new" regulator.[/QUQOTE]

No one is denying the shop anything. They simply need to charge for the services they offer rather than getting double the going rate for a piece of equipment to cover the cost of the loss leader classes they offer or loss leader gas fills or whatever. I don't need a class and I don't want to pay for one.

It is most definitely an issue of ethics as if you try in store and buy on line, you are taking something without paying for it, which if we were talking about a "good" rather than a service woudl be shoplifting, but while it is not legally a crime you are still taking something of value without paying for it.

You make it sound like stealing. It's not stealing to take something that's freely offered. Who says it has value? Is there a price tag on it? Is there some kind of contract that says if you do this for me that I'm goiung to do something for you? That stuff is on the rack to get people in the door and try to sell it to them. If it doesn't work you need to re-examine your own business plan and model rather than blame me for walking in and trying something on.

In my opinion, if you want on-line low prices, then buy all means buy on line. But do it honestly buy taking your chances with fit, etc, and by not abusing the LDS by using them to help you decide what you want without giving them the benefit of the sale. And when you have a problem with your on-line purchase, expect your local dealer to charge you for the same services they provide their customers for free.

There is nothing dishonest about walking in and trying something on and not buying unless there was some sort of promise to buy in advance. If you get them in the door that's half the battle. Once they're there it's up tp you to offer something they are willing to pay for. If you can't the failure is yours and that of your suppliers and NOT a failure of the customer.

 

[redacted]

Phil Ellis
Dive Sports Online
www.divesports.com
(800) 601-DIVE

Another 21st Century Scuba retailer - sounds great. I've marked your site and hope my travels carry me to Decatur, Al sometime.