Local Dive Shops

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blindref757:
I guess I'm an A-Hole. When I'm in the market to buy a TV, I go to Best Buy, Wal-Mart, and maybe even Circuit City. It's called shopping.

My LDS has a "sticker price" and then there is the "customer price". People who don't have a relationship with the folks at the shop are asked to pay a little more. People who have gone through their training classes, been to their events, supported them with some purchases along the way get a price that is just as competetive as ScubaToys.com.

:lol: your first comment is great.

about your second comment, that's what i keep hearing but that's not what i'm seeing. i took two classes with an lds so i get 10% off of msrp for being a student. but i can go to just about any other lds in town and ask for a deal (with no affiliation whatsoever) and they will also give me that 10% off. i guess in that way, they are certainly competitive with each other!
 
What would we do without the LDS? They generally don't make money off the classes but make the money off the sales of gear. Without them we will all be getting classes on-line? I know several dive shop owners and they will all tell ya the same thing. They don't get rich owning a dive shop but do it for the love of us. Additionally, I would not think that a brand new diver would be able to do enough research to get the right stuff on line. I listen to my LDS. They have watched me dive, they know what I want to spend, they know what kind of diving I do. Yes, I asked a ton a questions which drives the owner crazy but he understands that I respect him endlessly and listen to his advice. I don't see anything wrong with buying on-line but I support my LDS because he keeps me safe!
 
seadoggirl:
What would we do without the LDS? They generally don't make money off the classes but make the money off the sales of gear. Without them we will all be getting classes on-line? I know several dive shop owners and they will all tell ya the same thing. They don't get rich owning a dive shop but do it for the love of us. Additionally, I would not think that a brand new diver would be able to do enough research to get the right stuff on line. I listen to my LDS. They have watched me dive, they know what I want to spend, they know what kind of diving I do. Yes, I asked a ton a questions which drives the owner crazy but he understands that I respect him endlessly and listen to his advice. I don't see anything wrong with buying on-line but I support my LDS because he keeps me safe!

I don't need any classes and what a new diver can do or needs to do is not of enough interest to me that I am willing to finance it. If the shop doesn't make any money teaching perhaps they should rethink their pricing. I don't want to teach for free and I don't expect them to and niether should those who desire their instruction. I've known lots of dive shop owners and I even owned a dive shop myself. Still, I've never really known anyone who owned a diveshop "for the love of us". For the record, I did not invest every nickle I had in opening a shop because of any love I have for you.

If your dive shop is providing you the value you require for your dollar, that sounds like a good arrangement for both of you.
 
My thought is that it is really about something that only the purchaser can know ... intent. If I go into it knowing I am going to use the LDS staff as a resource for my online purchase, that would make me scum. If, however, I ask my LDS questions, find out what I need to know, and ask for their best price ... with the understanding that I will compare prices ... then I am just being a smart consumer. And yes, I would give (have given) weight to the fact that they were there to answer questions when making my decision. In my relatively brief history I have already had it go both ways. I shop the same way for other purchases, to the extent possible. Though for some reason Wal-Mart does not like to haggle over prices.
 
Walt1957:
My thought is that it is really about something that only the purchaser can know ... intent. If I go into it knowing I am going to use the LDS staff as a resource for my online purchase, that would make me scum.

First off, while there are some good shops out there (I haven't found one recently) if that's the limit of your recourses you've got problems. How does it make you scum though? If I give away free hot dogs on the street are you scum for having one?
If, however, I ask my LDS questions, find out what I need to know, and ask for their best price ... with the understanding that I will compare prices ... then I am just being a smart consumer. And yes, I would give (have given) weight to the fact that they were there to answer questions when making my decision.

I find that anyone selling something will answer questions. The answers I get aren't always honest or complete but they answer. What if you ask your questions knowing thet they likely won't be able to compete on price? Are you still scum?
 
seadoggirl:
Additionally, I would not think that a brand new diver would be able to do enough research to get the right stuff on line.

That exactly what I did! I researched everthing online, here on ScubaBoard, as well as my LDS. I did'nt end up buying anything my LDS recommended. Not that they were wrong really but what I found on my own and with the advise from people here just seemed better for my needs.
 
Let me echo a few points and add a little.

First, Disclosure: I work (volunteer actually) at a LDS that been around for 30+ years (same owner). The owner is a good friend and I'm learning a lot about the dive business. Also I'm a very experienced business man having founded and run a few companies rather successfully over the years. I am totally familar with the cost structure, overheads, margins and COGS for the LDS.

Pricing: No LDS can compete with some of the pricing on the internet. I routinely survey the major sites to compare pricing for gear we routinely sell, BCs, masks, fins, regs and wetsuits. A few sites appear to be using items as "loss leaders". They are selling them below what we can buy them from the mfgr. And we get excellent terms. However these are a small number of items. Most internet pricing from the better known sites are within 10-25% of MSRP. Any decent LDS can meet or get very close to those prices if they want to. We routinely adjust our pricing to reflect internet pricing. We generally can't meet it, but we can get within 10-15%. Sometimes we're actually lower, but not often.

Competition: Another thing that I do is survey our local competition. They don't know me and I just browse and don't take their time. I am shocked at some of the prices that I see. Many sell above MSRP by as much as 25%. I can clearly see why people are turned off by some LDS pricing. It's outragious. But anything is negotiable. In the US, we tend to take the sticker as a non-negotiable price. Talk with your LDS. Make sure they know you're sincere and I bet the price will come down if it's excessive. Nobody wants to lose a sale.

The Future: LDSs are disappearing. It's a dying business that is frought with high ownership turnover. Only a few will survive (hopefully). maybe 1-2 per market. There just aren't enough (new or otherwise) divers to support more with the internet as competition. Earlier some one suggested that you find a good LDS and support it. Good advice. When they're gone, where are you going to go for air, repairs, training, etc.

Final comment: The price gougers need to go and they will over time. They're giving the LDS industry a bad rap. Remember "Pigs survive, but Hogs get slaughtered"

Just one opinion.
 
NadMat:
I I also got to keep my money in the local economy rather than send my money out of state. I will buy some things online, but will give LDS a shot at business first.

Just my 2psi

That is how I like to shop! I like to spend my money local, and if it grew on trees for me I 'd ALWAYS shop local, but sometimes you have to go with the better deal (just remember we're talking about life support, so deal around at your own risk:eyebrow: ).
 
I guess I am a little different, because I am more likely to buy something if I can see it "in person" rather than in a catalog. I would be more likely to buy a regulator that my LDS had in stock than I would to have them order one from a catalog for me. When they show me the catalog, I usually go home and shop for that item on the net. What is the point in an LDS with no/limited inventory? Where is their competitive advantage?
 
ReefMongoose:
I agree with you about the fact that online buying options are directly affecting LDS sales. It stands to reason, online shops are direct competitors to LDS', and what makes them even more competitive to stay in business is that they have much less overheads to cover to maintain their presence than your average LDS.

This simply is not the case. Operating a properly merchandised and stocked online store required a gigantic investment. The typical merchandise inventory of a LDS is somewhere between $35,000 and $65,000. Some considerably more and some considerably less. A typical, successful online store will have a merchandise inventory in excess of $300,000. The larger ones could easily have an inventory that exceeds $1,000,000. So it certainly isn't cheaper than a local scuba store. Online stores also have the same type of business expenses as the LDS In fact, most of the online stores are actually LDSs. They have all of the expenses associated with your local dive store, and then more. Online dive stores often do considerable advertising, something the local store doesn't do. Online stores have toll-free telephone numbers, the cost of which often exceeds $1500 per month. You cannot make the argument that the difference in retail prices between local and online stores is expense based. You cannot also assume that the online store is getting a much lower cost of good from the manufacturer. With few exceptions, the online store will not get much better wholesale prices from the manufacturers. Again, it is a totally different business model based on market saturation and the ability to accept a lower gross profit margin.

Just think of how much money needs to be hauled out of the bank account to put that demo BCD or reg on the LDS shelf as opposed to having a simple picture of the same thing posted on the web site.

Behind every picture of a BC that you find on an online website, you will find DOZENS AND DOZENS of actual BCDs in stock. Again, the difference in price is not about inventory, it is about a different business model.

Additional note: I am a local dive store. I also am an internet dive store. If the local dive store thinks the solution to their problem is to reduce the inventory and operate an "ordered as sold" retail operation, they are terribly mistaken. The secret to a successful local dive store is a large and expansive inventory, combined with a business plan to turn that inventory often enough so you can be profitable. You must have the stuff the customer wants, when they want it. You also cannot compensate for high, uncompetitive prices with better service. Customers expect good service, not matter what the price. In fact, much of the move to online buying is driven by the fact that online stores often give MUCH BETTER support and customer service than local stores. This must be corrected if the local stores intends to survive. This move on behalf of local stores to stock less is simply an indication of the end times. I have never known of ANY BUSINESS that got bigger and stronger by retrenching and downsizing. It can't work in the long term. Anyway, my opinion. Thanks.

Phil Ellis
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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