Marking Jumps and T's

[Jack Hammer]

I really like the idea of the cookies on the temp line by the spool/reel. That makes a lot of sense to me and it reduces cookie congestion. I really hate congested cookies. It would also prevent a spool/reel being inadvertently removed because you thought your buddy was ahead of you.

The challenge with that is they then have no navigational value, which kinda defeats a very strong purpose for leaving them in the first place.

 

[Jack Hammer]

The double arrows provide all the navigational value you could ask for. Now, a T is different and requires a navigational element.

Not all jumps are pre marked with arrows...[emoji6]

 

[karstdvr]

Quite true, then the person laying the line puts in an arrow to tie off on. .

As long as that person puts the arrow in the correct direction, which brings up another problem that has been discussed ad nauseam here. In systems, we will use North Florida for this discussion, line arrows point to the closest exit. Some are being taught that their line arrows need to point in the direction of their travel, or to the closest confirmed exit, which could contradict existing line arrows.

 

[PfcAJ]

Not all jump arrows point to your exit, either.

 

[Peter Guy]

Jim wrote

Most jump lines jumped to are within sight of the line jumped from....I can think of very few exceptions.

Then TSandM wrote she could think of three here in Mexico immediately (two of which are from the same main line).

I don't have that much experience in Mexican caves (100-150 dives) and even less in Florida caves (fewer than 25) but is this a case of one of the differences between the Florida cave diving culture/experience and the Mexican one?

 

[TSandM]

It is also extremely common in MX to swim to an area of the cave where the arrows are contrary to your exit, so marking the exit direction with a cookie really is the best way to deal with jumps here. Putting in arrows that change the general navigation of the cave is frowned upon.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Quite true, then the person laying the line puts in an arrow to tie off on. Everything else still applies.

On top of potential for navigational confusion others have mentioned, now the guy running the line has to drop an arrow and a cookie plus run the line. Without his cookie how will team members know if he's been through there in event of a separation? He can't pull the line or arrow. Then you gotta clean all that up on the way out. Sounds simple enough til you start making multiple jumps.

 

[kensuf]

The challenge with that is they then have no navigational value, which kinda defeats a very strong purpose for leaving them in the first place.

I guess you missed where I said You could put 1 cookie on the main line marking the navigational exit, and the personal cookies on the temporary line by the spool...

Arrows aren't a good answer, the double arrows can point the wrong way, or your arrow could point away from the closest exit. Think the Olsen line coming from Peacock, jumping into the Crossover tunnel for an example.

 

[nimoh]

I guess you missed where I said You could put 1 cookie on the main line marking the navigational exit, and the personal cookies on the temporary line by the spool...

Arrows aren't a good answer, the double arrows can point the wrong way, or your arrow could point away from the closest exit. Think the Olsen line coming from Peacock, jumping into the Crossover tunnel for an example.

The way I was taught was that every team member is responsible for navigation, and as such everyone lays their own cookie marking navigational direction. Using a group cookie would change that. Not saying it is wrong, just contrary to the way I as taught, and I happen to agree with the individual responsibility for navigation.

On another note, putting the cookies on the temporary line would mean that cookies are being installed on a slack line (unless of course you wait for the lead diver to make a tie off). However, the lead diver would either need to install the cookie on a slack line or make a tie off and then back up to install the cookie. I'm not saying it is impossible to install cookies on slack line, but for the divers following, they would also be installing cookies on a moving line (unless of course the lead diver stops and waits). I think there is also more chance of them falling off, but this could probably be remedied by double wrapping each cookie (which I do sometimes anyway). It just seems to me to be more trouble than the savings of getting a few cookies off of the main line.

I would add that I have never been on a dive with real bad cookie congestion. I have never made a jump where more than one other team was making the same jump, so I have never seen more than 6 installed cookies at one time. My thinking might change if I were ever on a dive where I saw 30 cookies

 

[ucfdiver]

He should have tied into an arrow anyway indicating their chosen exit! All they're really adding is a cookie near the spool to mark their presence past that point in the cave. Cookies are a reminder to the diver and the diver's buddies. It's the old joke about two kinds of people. Those who are not able to extrapolate from incomplete data. If separated in a cave, there can be no safe extrapolation.

Many divers do not use arrows when tying in jump spools. It's not uncommon to see a jump spool tied in like you would find a T, and cookies on the exit side. That way your arrow doesn't confuse an exiting diver who might not have the same exit as you.