Meeting the enemy!

[DiverBuoy]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
We can argue about where the minimum standards should be but I'm certain that at the end of an OW class a diver should know what good looks like and they don't. I don't believe that the goal of an entry level class is to put out polished experts but the should have a

Mike, clearly the difference between knowing what looks good and doing it will take more than 4 certification dives (PADI). YOu'd have to tell certified divers - sorry but to dive in the quarry (or on this reef) you must show your Peak Perf Buoy cert and AOW too? Wherever they dive - that is where they are going to get experience. Why not swim over to the next violator you observe and show the hovering sign and point to the messy trail they are leaving behind.

Tell everyone who comes into your shop to do the same, pretty soon you'll have everyone at the dive sight recognizing bad vs good, and pointing it out to their fellow divers, while taking pride in their own ability to avoid being targeted for criticism. Post signs around your shop with illustrations and petition to get a few signs posted around the quarry too.

This is a personal mission for you - and someone has to take up the cause. I appreciate the effort you're making to raise awareness with all instructors and divers on this forum and everyone within your sphere of influence. Beginning divers must especially pay attention to the continued advancement of their buoyancy skills. Clearly it is vital if our future generations are to have a piece of what we have now.

 

[Rob Meddes]

landlocked once bubbled...
I think you missed the point. If it is not ok to remove a stag from the herd and scare the critters then how is it ever ok to sit on a fish nest, remove future fish from the school and scare the crap out of the parents? Same thing, different pond. The only difference is that the hunter was utilizing the resorce not simply wasting it out of ignorance! ut:

Your talking about a bunch of testosterone filled muppets with rifles the IRA would be proud to own going into an environment with the sole intention of blowing the s*%t out of a magnificent animal like a stag just for fun & your asking me the difference between them & divers??????
I think the rifles in the wrong hands mate. Better look behind you, stags are quite smart.
Bad hunting
Rob


Is there anythin left?............ Dunno, lets shoot trees
:getsome: ara: :moose:

 

[landlocked]

gedunk once bubbled...
I seen major potential for innocent people, unjustly burning at the stake. I'm all for accountability for instructors but who will provide oversite for the people of this organization?

I can see it now, scuba narc., on a power trip. Report him he touched bottom or her trim was off by 5 degrees

I don't think the focus of the group would be playing scuba police. Rather to make suggestions on how agencies might facilitate the training of better divers backed by a combined membership of current divers and instructors. Sort of like DAN does with no fly times etc.

 

[landlocked]

Rob Meddes once bubbled...
.... hunting ....

Lets pick this up in the non-diving related section shall we? Oh... this is going to be fun!

 

[GDI]

:doctor:
Mike I support you in your quest to ensure better skills. Many times though I have seen or heard instructors claim that they do a better job. I believe you to be genuine in your statements. Although I do not spend 15 hours in the pool with my students I do spend on average 3 pool sessions of at 3-4 hours in duration. I have had additional sessions if required and have taken as much as a year before handing a certification card to some of my students, yes of course in part due to scheduling but also for improvement of their skills. I average 4-8 students per class.Fin control and Bouyancy unlike other skills is the first skill we as divers notice about another diver.I teach these in my first pool session and by the last session I expect the student to perform all skills without the need to kneel down. Now not all will master this by than but none of them beat up the environment. It is a joy to swim behind my students and be able to see where they are going and not where they came from. Some talk the talk but fail to dive the dive if you know what I mean. Let me suggest this to you. Do not give up to teaching open water students. Many of my students have designs about being an instructor. I would rather fight the urge to cattleboat teach for numbers and pursue the quality approach. By producing better quality skills in our students we will plant a seed that will eventually be passed on to other divers, that is if we instructed them correctly. Students are only as good as the instructors who teach and mentor them. Not the agency. So take the challenge and be better than those who are only interested in the ol' mighty dollar. I say - If it is the dollar you are after than consider the continuing education approach. Many of the students of a cattle boat class only go as far as their open water level, this is unfortunate. Maybe you might ask that other instructor to come diving with you sometime and show him the damage that he is subject to causing. As instructors it is our responsibility to preserve the environment. If we don't then we will be without a job. Thank-you for caring!

 

[GDI]

:doctor:
Ok So some still think it is the agency that calls the shots. THE INSTRUCTOR ONLY FOLLOWS GUIDELINES SET UP BY EACH AGENCY. THE FINAL PRODUCT IS THE INSTRUCTOR'S DOING! I like the idea of a Instructor review board to report back to the agencies regarding the development of skills and standards. BUT HEY WAIT A MINUTE AS INSTRUCTORS WE ALREADY HAVE THAT OPTION. As a formed body maybe it will be heard. And lets not fear the repercussions from the agencies for this. THINK ABOUT IT!This is why different agencies exist, people are not happy with the current agency's policy or practises, but it is still down to the instructor.

 

[DameDykker]

sst: Reading all these interesting posts (and many other besides) my conclusion is that what you probably want is a lobby group of good and knowing instructors of all brands to ask the right questions of the organisations.

I can image a time where "Polite Divers" (or wath you'll call it) will ask questions that no agency can afford to leave unanswered.

Keep up the good work! :sunny:

 

[cmay]

gedunk once bubbled...
I think i missed something here. I thought we were talking about a group independent of the agencies made up of instructors and non-instructors.

It's the non-instructors i would be worried about thinking they were qualified w/o organized instructional/teaching training.

I think i crossed a couple peoples different ideas:doh:

Sorry gedunk, I think I was crossed as well. I think basically we are on the same page.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Just brainstorming…

What I envision is an organization, which works with agencies and instructors to improve the quality of dive training. The goal would be corrective rather than punitive. Instructors already have the right and, in fact, the obligation to report standards violations of which we have first hand knowledge. I think the problem is more than standards violations though. I think in many cases we have classes, which meet the letter of the standards but not the intent of the standards. I don’t believe the quality of the end product is being evaluated beyond dive shop and resort bottom lines and DAN accident data.

How could this be done?
Document observations of the skill level of local populations of divers. This would point to common problems and indicate the magnitude of the problem.

Gather data with the goal of determining a root cause of the problem. This could be done using tools like questionnaires, diver interviews, instructor interviews and onsite observations.

From this data an attempt could be made to differentiate systemic problems from isolated occurrences. Suggestions for corrective action could be drafted and presented to the industry.

Instructor workshops and seminars could be conducted. New instructors, poor instructors and probably all instructors would benefit greatly from rubbing elbows with other instructors. I don’t think there is currently a forum for the exchange of ideas and methods. I for one would be happy to steal methods from others. I haven’t thought of everything.

An attempt could be made to better educate the consumer. This is a hard one but maybe pamphlets and posters distributed where? Would dive shops display them? What about magazines? Maybe regional seminars for those interested in learning to dive or about diving. Field workshops like “Gilboa Buoyancy Control and Trim Demo Day”. That may be of more value than another DUI day. Some of these sites see hundreds of divers every weekend and more when there is a publicized event. These sites are also where the worst stuff is seen and the prefect place to find and reach the target audience. They’re all in one place.

As a non-agency aligned non-profit organization, if the numbers were sufficient and the message was constructive it might receive enough attention to be of value.

Comments?

 

[Blargh]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Just brainstorming…


As a non-agency aligned non-profit organization, if the numbers were sufficient and the message was constructive it might receive enough attention to be of value.

Comments?

One.

Diverlink got attention...