Meeting the enemy!

[DiveTub]

DSJ
Yep I think is a great idea, now if we can only come up with a way to finance it without putting instructos like me out of the business?? Would cost a fortune to have these independent examiners finishing off every course taught... But having an independent come out and shadow a course say every six or 12 months might be a great idea

It is my belief that it is up to the student to their homework and takes the course at their desired level.

Backpackers will always take the $150 special while they are on holiday, they will get there BOW and go no further in there diving. They don't really care about theory or skills they just want to go see the reef. I have seen it a thousand times and taught at this level myself when I started instructing. I hated it hence I left the LDS's behind.

But there are those that want more from there diving they want to be top divers, be in the sport a lifetime, they further there diving education with follow up courses, they are here on the boards learning and increasing there knowledge of this wonderful sport. These are the people I enjoy teaching to dive. And why I got off the LDS carousel.

 

[DiverBuoy]

PADI Quality Assurance sends every 3rd certified person a questionnaire about coverage of standards and what skills were learned during the course. I've seen a few of these through a course director and they are worded very cleverly. I'm certain that many students never fill them out. But PADI will use these as a stepping stone toward further investigation against an instructor if a pattern of violation starts to take shape over time.

I really like the idea of an independant evaluator, PADI could send one out every now and then and they would shadow you during your course. The evaluator would write a post-mortem report and provide you with a copy. Like a fix it ticket you would have so long a period of time to comply or be disciplined.

This whole thing reminds me of the discussion about being certified for life. Perhaps we should implement renewal mechanisms - just like for driving. I'd personally be inconvenienced by it as would anyone else, but perhaps it would clean things up a bit more.

 

[Rob Meddes]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...
Mike,

Rob Meddes, Are you for real with those hunting comments or are you just trying to get under people's skin? You really think it's immoral to kill an animal? Are you a vegitiarian, or are you some ivory tower snob who eats hormone filled, mad cow disease spreading beef raised on cleared forested land and then chaisties the "low class" hunters?

Been there seen it done it. Go to the non-diving forum.
If i've got under the skin of someone who kills for fun then you've just made my week. I think it's immoral to kill for fun.
One more thing, the "low classes" as you put it don't generally hunt in this country, it's the bored upper classes who find that bit more power over a critter adds to their superiority complex.
Glad to be an itch
Rob

 

[DSJ]

True, Sydney. There will always be a call for the "resort course". I would wager that just about everyone on this board is not satisfied with that level of instruction, but given market forces and self policing things won't likely change.

A more realistic solution might be to "Show and Tell". Show new students and bottom walkers just what good diving looks like. Tell them with publications and the like. Get them intereted in getting better. Perhaps a regular article in "Diver Training" might help. GUE/DIR seems to be working in this mode, but my take is that they put up a barrier for all but the converted. I am reading the DIRF book right now, and the author laments the idea that DIR is seen only as a technical dive method. But then I look at the pictures on the cover and inside and see a diver tricked out in a dry $uit, with an expensive canister torch strapped on. Your average new diver will take one look at that and conclude "Tech, way beyond me..."

I found the requirements for the DIRF class on the GUE site. They include being able to swim 200 yards, and coming to class with a BP and wings and long hose. Again, someone not already convinced will look at this and puase, "Hmm, can I swim 200 yards with no equipment? And do I want to buy the BP and wings, because my LDS doesn't rent them?" They may be interested, but the barrier will cause them to put off the decision to sign up. The GUE OW course might get around that, or it might not.

Personally, I am rather passionate about learning and skill building whatever my persuit, so I can't claim to being average in this regard. I've taken a bouyancy class localy, but wasn't particularly satisfied with the level of attention or instruction. It only ran two pool sessions with minimal classroom instruction, and doesn't come close to the Peak Performance class mentioned. I guess I'll have to take a DIRF class to get the level I'm looking for, even if it means laying out more cash for additional equipment. (After all I got iinto scuba as a way to get rid of all that pesky cash that's always getting in the way).

 

[diverkim]

With all due respect cmay, you may not buy the "poor instructor" thing but it is a fact. And whether every instructor knew beforehand or not is not entirely relevant. Dive agencies are pushing new instructors onto the market cognizant that the supply of labor is high and the wages are low. It is a capitalist world and dog eats dog. If you are a low-paid instructor then you have to make ends meet to attain and maintain a mimimal level of living.
You are correct regarding my inaccurate wording (sydney_diver too). It is not an oath; that was sloppy wording on my part. What one is required to sign is an agreement with PADI.

"Renewal and continued membership is partially based upon your reading and accepting this Agreement. PADI will consider renewal of your membership subject to the following terms and conditions:

9. I will not discredit PADI nor cause any action that will create a liability to PADI. PADI will have the sole right to determine whether any actions are detrimental to PADI.

15. I understand and agree that membership in PADI is granted at the sole discretion of PADI, based on its unilateral determination of several criteria including, but not limited to, whether acceptance and continuation of membership is in the best interest of PADI. Satisfaction of minimum requirements does not guarantee membership. Membership in PADI, at any level, may be revoked at any time."

My understanding of articles 9. and 15. are that there is much room for PADI to wield control over a member. If that member speaks freely (something taken for granted, although it shouldn't be, in most western democracies) and contrary to PADI, well, that member may find him- or herself no longer a member.

Anyway, my original point was that it is too simple to find fault solely with the instructors. It seems from what I am reading on this posting that there is a consensus that poorly skilled divers is a multicausal phenomenon. Training agencies, dive industry, instructors, and niggardly dive customers share in this problem.


:boom:

 

[DiveTub]

Kim you are right
But I am guessing PADI would need that sort of control over the Instructors to be able to Expel them if they where to ever breach the standards set by the agency.

Does not bother me a great deal anyway I am only in it to Dive, Teach and have a top time doing it.

 

[DiverBuoy]

diverkim once bubbled...
My understanding of articles 9. and 15. are that there is much room for PADI to wield control over a member.

I've seen that small print in every consultant contract I've ever read. It's all about giving the entity a way out when all other more obvious means are exhausted. Your driver's license provisos read the same way.

 

[Blargh]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Blargh,
The approach would be way different. Any one can end up in court over anything though.

devilfish,
I'm not suggesting the evaluation or retraining of instructors unless an agency decided to do that.

True...

And I was most probably wrong to snipe from the sideline anyway

 

[MASS-Diver]

OK, DiverBuoy, easy with the personal insults.

To back up my statement (that the most deaths in the US were new/inexperieced divers) I'm afraid I'll have to cite a source I'm sure you have never read, the DIR-F book (you can check their citation in the back)

60% of diver deaths in the US are divers with 20 or fewer dives under their belt. Then again maybe you think 20 dives is a pretty decent number, heck 40 and you're ready to be a dive master.

Sorry, you don't like the facts.......


The bottom line is that training standards are low and getting lower. Poorly trained diver either die, teach themselves how to survive, or, as most divers choose to do, they just stop diving. PADIs' tactic of just churning out divers (and instructors) may meet a public demand and it has made PADI some good profits, but, the simple fact is that despite the huge number of newly certified divers each year, the overall number of active divers has remained constant. This system, IMO, has failed the dive community. By churning out divers with a couple hours of class room training PADI ends up with divers that are not prepared to dive safely and as result equate diving with stress and not fun. I think that's a big reason why so many people quit this sport.

What's good for PADI isn't necessarily good for the dive community.

 

[DiveTub]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...
OK, DiverBuoy, easy with the personal insults.

To back up my statement (that the most deaths in the US were new/inexperieced divers) I'm afraid I'll have to cite a source I'm sure you have never read, the DIR-F book (you can check their citation in the back)

60% of diver deaths in the US are divers with 20 or fewer dives under their belt. Then again maybe you think 20 dives is a pretty decent number, heck 40 and you're ready to be a dive master.

Sorry, you don't like the facts.......


The bottom line is that training standards are low and getting lower. Poorly trained diver either die, teach themselves how to survive, or, as most divers choose to do, they just stop diving. PADIs' tactic of just churning out divers (and instructors) may meet a public demand and it has made PADI some good profits, but, the simple fact is that despite the huge number of newly certified divers each year, the overall number of active divers has remained constant. This system, IMO, has failed the dive community. By churning out divers with a couple hours of class room training PADI ends up with divers that are not prepared to dive safely and as result equate diving with stress and not fun. I think that's a big reason why so many people quit this sport.

What's good for PADI isn't necessarily good for the dive community.

Mass Diver
Maybe you should get your facts correct as well
PADI Standards for Dive Master Exit is 60 dives NOT 40.

Not sure how you get a few hours of classroom time from the BOW courses as it is more like 10 - 12 hours in my classes

Also As much as you may Bash PADI the Agency does a great job, they provide the base of Materials and support to teach really good courses.

As for your comment on that despite the huge number of newly certified divers each year, the overall number of active divers has remained constant. Can you please back this up with some statistics ?

maybe like this PADI Certification History Worldwide (graph)
All Levels 1967-2000
http://padi.com/english/images/worldwidecerts.gif