Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[peterbj7]

There is no doubt that diving tuition standards are ill-controlled and are often appallingly low. I know a dive shop owner here who is himself a dreadful (though opiniated) diver, but went to Utila and came back a PADI instructor. I know he has his staff "teach" people diving, and he signs off on the card. I have too often received trainee divers who "just need to do their checkout dives" who know little of what they should know, and what they do know they don't understand. I had a PADI AOW student recently who had done is OW course locally a little while earlier, and neither understood most of the theory nor had actually done quite a few of the stipulated skills. What started out as a PPB dive became virtually a complete PADI Open Water course. I find teaching Nitrox really finds out the people who don't have a clue about diving.

I'm not going to condemn eLearning as most o the problems I see aren't related to it, but I do feel uncomfortable about it. For many years I've taught my own version of it, but that has involved MORE tuition and learning than the normal classroom style, not less. The benefit to the student has purely been that much of the theory can be done at home in slow time, rather than here at a resort.

My problem with modern recreational diving is that it's just too approachable, too easy. But my style isn't popular because it takes longer and costs more, and people have been told how quick and cheap it is to learn to dive.

 

[aikiguy]

How much instruction have you had? Your profile does not list your highest level of certification. All we know is that you have been certified for more than 10 years and have accumulated less than 100 dives. (I am just trying to get a sense of what percentage of the instructor pool you are basing your opinion on.)


I can't tell whether this is hyperbole, a mistake, or a lie. Which is it?



So you ran into a poor teacher who did not fulfill the contract. That was more than 10 years ago. Did you report her for that at the time?

Ah, so there are good instructors. Of course, you would refuse to take a class from him again, wouldn't you? After all, you said, "I won't spend another wooden nickel on dive instruction; it has been and will remain into the future a complete waste of money."

The nitrox course teaches you how to use nitrox when you dive. It does not teach you how to blend nitrox. There is no practical reason to know how to blend nitrox for the nitrox user except to know that one method requires O2 clean tanks. Most nitrox instructors don't blend the gas either,so they probably don't know how to do it. If you want to blend your own nitrox, you can take a class for that. The diving requirement was removed years ago because you don't learn anything about nitrox by doing the dive itself.


The idea of home study is that you don't go over the materials if the student shows through knowledge reviews that the material was understood--as you indicate it was.

Well, if he read the answers off to you as you took the test, that was a serious breach of instructional ethics. Did you report him?

So, we can see that you had two instructors you think were bad and one you thought was great. Therefore all instructors suck. I get it.

I am an advanced diver. I have slightly over 100 logged dives and probably double that number unlogged... I only counted my logged dives as that was what the question stated. I did not initially value my log as much as I do now. In addition I have several specialty classes that I received instruction and dives for while diving with a dive buddy who was officially qualified to teach them. She wanted to do them with us, so we did them with her.

Yes the answers were read while we were "taking the TEST". How do I know what the instructional ethics are for your industry? As far as I have been able to tell from my real life experience? From my viewpoint the ethics are simple pay your money up the food chain.

Hyperbole? Hardly, how many people have to offer me dive instructor training in the Caribbean or the South Pacific at dive shows to believe that all you have to do is pay your money. Just like that Nitrox course... You pay your money you get you cert....

No you are not getting it... Every time I PAY someone for instruction in this industry all I get is a badly written gear sales brochure and some of the worst instruction I have seen done at a pace that makes the instructor the most money. How much more money should I spend to collect further data samples?

From a students learning experience the NITROX Class and the NITROX materials were a complete failure. They should have just taken the money and issues a permit for nitrox use. No one cared if anyone learned in the class, only that everyone passed. That is not about safety it is about the $$$$ collected up and down the food chain. It was flat out a money grab. Including the period of the class where they told us to use our own computer manuals and figure out how to enter the correct nitrox settings….

Had you not had the instructor language at the bottom of your signature line I would have known you were an instructor. You don't get the student perspective. The issue is with the client, the issue is with the student...The instructor is never the problem when the student doesn’t get it. It shines through.... It also shines through that I am not experienced enough in your opinion to evaluate teaching methods and curriculum materials. I would caution you on these assumptions.

Why should I risk more money for more poor materials, and more poor instruction? Change agencies and start over because one is supposedly superior to another? There is no way to evaluate this from the customer end. NONE. Padi has failed to police their providers, there is no ethics in the Padi system, there is no enforcement, as a brand name I try now to avoid it.

Look at the materials and who the target market for the materials is? What are the materials aimed at education or further sales. Why pay to watch a badly done sales pitch... Every training in the dive industry that I have paid to be part of is first a SALES game, and second, a teaching environment.

Have I had mentors that have taken me under their wing, and taught me? Oh yeah. I learned more from a few dives with Michael in the south pacific than I would have thought possible... He wanted a dive partner, and was a teacher in another field. We were amazed at what he taught us.

Larry was a teacher first, and in the dive industry because he loved being in the water teaching people. I remember talking to a bunch of his students who said they knew he didn’t make money at it. Would I take classes from Larry again? No probably would not. Not because of Larry’s teaching, but because I don’t see that the dive education industry has anything to offer me that is of sufficient value based on my experience. Would I go diving with him, in a heart beat! Would I call him to tell him how awesome I think he is! Oh Yeah….

I know how to dive, I know how to be safe. What could a class offer me that would increase my enjoyment?

You want to discount my experiences without providing anything other than an attempt to discredit me by stating my sample size is small… Yes but they are still valid samples.

Guy

 

[Garth]

Let me follow that up with this... If you charge reasonable prices and give perks every once in a while I would be excited about buying local. When I find an online shop that charges a hundred dollars less it's an easy choice.

I have heard of shops that support their loyal customers with free air fills. My local shop charges 7$ an air fill. Murder if you ask me. But no one did anyway.

As long as there are shops existing like this there will be people shopping around.


Rant over.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have never hidden the fact that I feel I teach a quality course for a quality agency. I have never hidden my disdain and contempt for those that choose to give students less than what they pay for. When they teach for an agency that purports to adhere to a set of standards that they voluntarily agree to yet throw away when it is convenient or more profitable I will say something. I do not believe that scuba is for everyone. It is clear that some have no business in the water. Yet they are told hey don't worry you'll be with a DM, guide, or instructor that they could not assist if something were to happen to that professional.

Do I promote myself, my courses, and my agency? You're damn right I do. That's part of running a business even if it is a side one. Unlike some though I do turn down students I feel should not be diving, display poor attitudes, or are not willing to put in the time that I and my agency feel is necessary to produce a competent, self reliant, and safe diver. Do I hesitate to point out to my students or others who ask deficiencies in other programs? Hell no. Why would I? I or someone I care about might have to buddy up with one of these people who could do nothing if my loved one had some type of incident.

My post is all about money? Really? Like I'm going to lose sleep over one student tuition. I don't do this for a living. And if one selects a class and instructor with less thought than they'd give buying a burger at mickey d's they should not be surprised that the lack of responsible action on their part and no research to investigate what they are getting themself and their loved one into results in a big stinking heap of crap.

At what point did you take responsibility and ask that the class be more complete, or insist that you and your wife get more time? Who held a gun to your head that prevented you from standing up for you and her? You moan about spending thousands of dollars that anyone who took some charge of their life would stop and say wait a minute, do I really need this.

Do you have any idea how many times I have pissed off a shop owner by telling my students and others who asked that they do not need to spend that kind of money on gear they don't need, want, or offers no real benefit. certified ten years and yet you are still griping about how you got ripped off. Had someone like me once said what I say now you may have not gotten screwed over. I also stated that what I charge is not out of line with other shops.

Want some facts - my OW course $329 complete with materials. student needs only to rent checkout gear for $40 for the weekend from a shop. I don't care which one. Other instructors who work through the shop are within a few bucks. A neighboring shop charges 349 plus a crewpak for whatever they are going for now and 75 for rental gear for checkouts. Another is 119 plus 250 for checkouts plus a crew pak plus 75-100 for gear and students are required to have a knife, compass, and watch that the store sells. I am not a shop instructor. I set my own hours, teach when I want, and who I want. While others are putting 6-10 in a class I take no more than 4 for OW and no more than 2 for AOW.

If students need extra pool or classroom sessions I don't charge for them. You don't know me or my motives. You brought up my gripe about no insurance. I would love to not need to pay over 500 a year for something I may never need. But is is REQUIRED if I want to teach. I could walk away from this right now and never teach again and it would have no effect on my lifestyle. The money I make goes solely back into diving. It does not pay my bills or put food on the table.

Before you go accusing me of being up in arms about this because of money you better get your facts in order. And then you go and bitch about a bad nitrox class? So you mean your experience with your OW taught you nothing about researching, comparing, and deciding based on value and content? Better take a look in the mirror the next time you go for your next class and ask that guy if he is ready to take on some personal responsibilty. Because it sounds like that is a thing that comes and goes.

 

[waterpirate]

As a educator you have several choices. Which one you choose to be is up to you. As a student you have the choice to purchase what you are comfortable with. Education is a product and regardless of what any one thinks the rules of buyer beware apply.
Our entire culture is on a road to dumbing down everthing and everyone in an effort to include everyone. I feel Jim's pain, but you cannot save the lemmings, just report the leaders of the lemmings for violations and hope they care.
For those of us that choose to educate or mentor it comes down to a sense of conscience and economics. For me it came down to a true calling, a need to pass on information that I have to others. I did a cost analysis and a roi and decided that there was no way I could charge for my time. My choice became one of ethics vs. economics, I chose to give my time freely mentoring people in scuba and educating people in my chosen field.
While this model does not make anyone rich or support their family it works for me. The point of this rant is that people who seek out quality instruction will get it from quality people who are willing to provide it, irregardless of the amount of money charged for the service.
I will end this rant with a question "who is John Galt?".
Eric

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The other item is that other instructors have taken these guys in the pool and found out that they do not know what they are doing and have refused to accept any of their people. So now they are shopping around for some schmuck who will rubber stamp em for a few bucks. Guess I'll just have to tell the next one if they want that to go to Hawaii.

Jim, I am sure that part of my impression of you is due to the fact that your emotional typing leaves me confused as to what you are trying to say. This paragraph is rife with examples.

Who exactly are you speaking of when you typed;

these guys,
they,
they,
their,
they,
em?

I would not have to ask if those non descriptive words had been typed something like this;

the non renewed DM's,
the other instructors,
the non renewed DM's,
the club's,
the lifeguards,
the club's people

Or maybe;

the lifeguards,
the lifeguards,
they,
the non renewed DM's,
the lifeguards,
the club's people

Or maybe;

the club's divers,
the other instructors,
non renewed DM's,
the club's,
non renewed DM's,
the club's people

Or any of a dozen other variations

And then the underlined portion; do you have any evidence that a Hawaii Instructor or Instructors will violate standards in the way you imply with this thread and this post?

I was PADI OW certified on Kauai in '92. I have worked as a PADI Instructor on Oahu and Maui since 11/01, both independent and with 6 different dive operators, earning at least half my income in those 9 years from diving instruction/guiding/photography. I am friends with, acquaintances with and internet connected with nearly 100 working Hawaii Instructors and this grapevine has not produced more than a handful of mostly ancient history "rumored" but undocumented violations. There are pretty much new divers being certified in Hawaii every day of the year and I have heard of significantly less than one serious training incident / accident per year for the nearly 20 years I've lived in the State.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

They also must be capable of performing all skills horizontal and in midwater, complete a doff and don, bailout, and buddy breathing training including swims while doing so.

Just for further clarification, is "doff and don" a skill?

 

[FireInMyBones]

High prices, low standards, and questionable ethics producing poor/ unqualified divers... sounds like a problem that has been brewing for a while.

Rather than complaining, action should be taken. All of this talk about how I was screwed over (yes this would include my AOW too), does little good. Perhaps a dire cut to the industry would be a good thing. It usually requires something drastic to get results.

Jim, I congratulate the desire for safety and proper training that you uphold. Do what needs to be done. I may have my opinions, but you already know what is right.

One thing that can be done is a simple boycotting of the gear and training that issues are with. Another is consumer reports. Like the issue facing SB right now, this Political Correctness garbage has got to go. If my ancestors were concerned about hurting the feelings of King George III of England, these United States of America would not be around. The public has the right to know that there are those that are not suitable to the teaching of SCUBA. That the tactics that these impostors are employing are scams and potentially hazardous. Consequences? Good. Maybe consumers in this market will wake up and stop buying into the crap being pushed by many agencies and gear companies.

I do not buy gear or training that I have found useless after research and time spent considering the alternatives.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I know for a fact they are getting none of this. They then are telling the people that an instructor will give them a discount because they already have completed some of the requirements. That is also false.

Excuse me Jim, but from my comprehension you have maybe only heard that "the non renewed DM's are telling the club members that an instructor will give them a discount." From what I see of your third party rendition of claimed events I think it is just as likely the club members are told that "an instructor may give them a discount," or possibly that "past non certified club members may have got a discount," but I fail to see how even if the lifeguard used the exact same word you typed that you can claim this is a fact. If two pre-trained lifeguards came to me with a pool to use, I could easily give them a discounted rate for a 2 day class and if they completed the course to standards they would get certification.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Halemano, that is why I have am editor for my book. This is a highly emotional issue for me. And as such I do owe you an apology for the Hawaii remark. When you said you would accept someone mentored by a dm who worked under a good instructor I let my emotions get the best of me. These uninsured, not current dms are not doing that. They are giving these students the impression that they are getting something they are not. And in doing so putting them at risk if they don't run into someone who will set them straight. I may never make it to Hawaii. Too expensive and too far. And according to Hawaii 5-0 they don't like us. But if I did come there to dive I'd want to know my buddy was capable, competent, and that I would not have to follow around a dm because I don't need to. If I was treated like I had to do that I'd take it as a great insult as any competent diver should. If I want to follow one fine. But don't make me do it. I don't need that kind of supervision and feel that no certified diver should.