Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[Jim Lapenta]

And yes the doff and don is a required skill. Student removes gear, leaves it on the bottom, surfaces and then executes a skin dive to recover and put gear back on. Only exposure suit and boots are not removed.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I talked to this person back in July. He called me and got info for him and his buddy who he now says has dropped out, and told them all the requirements for my class. I had an opening and was willing to work with them on a little bit of a deal because it was both of them. They were even willing to provide a pool since both worked a lifeguards. They said they would talk it over and get back with me. I waited 2 weeks and emailed them and received a reply that they had found an instructor more convenient for them. Ok fine. Then I get this call. They would have been done and fully trained, competent, safe, independent divers long before now. How do I know this- simple they would not have gotten a card if they weren't. Now he is between a rock and hard place and out what, 4 months, gas money to the club, a book that he may not be able to use, and the equipment he was talked into buying. That is just plain wrong.

Jim, why do you think he is "between a rock and a hard place?" Perhaps he did not have the money or time during the summer and now the other convenient instructor is not available? Were the drives to the club pool sessions really a complete waste of gas money? Did they get no useful experience out of it? If that was perhaps the pool they worked at and they only trained before or after their scheduled work shifts there would have been no additional gas money spent, just time in the pool with scuba gear on. As long as he does a PADI cert the book is just fine. What equipment was he talked into buying? Will he never be able to put it to use?

 

[tyesai]

I say good for Mr. Lapenta, the diving industry polices itself and if more people cared and did such things, we all might be better off.

 

[aikiguy]

Jim,

I know a lot about you from this post and the other posts on the site.

I am not questioning your values, or your instructional abilities. I have sufficient samples of the first, and live too far away to sample the second.

Your values in this and the previous post are quite apparent. You value people getting the worth of what they have paid for. You look down on others that you perceive as providing less than quality instruction whatever they charge. You feel that more complete training is a better value regardless of cost difference. You are a internally centered individual and will provide whatever your clients require to learn and pass their certifications once they have paid you. (You are not dependent on the perceptions of others to force you to provide what you believe is a good value) These are all values that I can understand and support. I feel we need more of these values in our country. I would go so far as to say they are rare. After several thousand posts I am certain that you hold them.

Weather or not the money goes wherever it goes is not at all my point or any of my interest. Your values in this series of posts, and in others that I have read are centered around the money you make teaching.

I believe that you have other values as a person, and I am not questioning them. I am just pointing out that this series of posts is not about safety it is about money.

Your values are well displayed here. Reread your own posts, they are about money, not safety. If they were about safety you would be listing the things that you know those DM's aren't teaching, that are safety issues. You don't surface safety issues, you bang on and on and on about money in both posts.

I am not saying you are all about money. I am saying that your original post and your reply to me certainly are.

In all the reading of your posts you pay service to safety, but rarely tell us what you think would be safer or how to make safer divers. You belittle the competition over and over again. You rail against low priced classes that fail to make good divers...

As a rank beginner over 10 years ago I read up on Padi and how great they are and how they claim to support the divers. I did not know anyone that dived, but thought scuba looked like fun. Scuba board was not yet in existence. I picked an instructor based on her sales pitch after calling all of them I could find in the area. (Larry Simenak was not in my area).The instructor I chose gave me advice on buying gear at the beginning, I did some additional shopping, but being a beginner found I had insufficient data other than that provided by my instructor. Which I believed to be a consultant in my employ in these matters at the time.. Does this sound like what you want your brand new students to do? Follow your suggestions? The instructor in this case turned out to be a faulty human being, it happens. The intervention of a truly value based individual Larry Simenak made diving possible at that time for me.

Last year while picking up a couple of pieces of gear at a local dive shop we saw a special on Nitrox diving class. We purchased the books, read them understood them and looked forward to the class... (Where should I have had more personal responsibility in here Larry? Should I have switched agencies? Maybe? Paid more, would that have guaranteed a better class? It did not the last time I followed that logic in this industry.) (I did however take further responsibility here. I bought the Oxyhackers guide, and studied it quite closely). The instructors for the class were poor. I had hoped that the class would cover more than was in the book. (Why have a class that only covers the materials in the book? So we were out some money, and some time.)

I did the even more responsible thing Larry in that class. I answered questions from the other side of the room. When the instructors were unable to answer them. They smiled and said thank you. I am not disappointed in my knowledge and skills in diving I have been and remain disappointed in the quality of instruction. I was disappointed, but I got my Nitrox cert.

Short of a lawsuit there was no reclaiming my money lost on my first ow classes. Would a lawsuit for breach of contract been more responsible? No just vengeful. We did several times tell the instructor that she was not meeting our needs, she did not care, she already had our money.

Your comments about personal responsibility would be truly funny if you knew me... So I will take them in that spirt and laugh, looking forward to the day when you do know me.

I was in no way insulting you Jim, I would just like to know what you value other than money.

Guy

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

And yes the doff and don is a required skill. Student removes gear, leaves it on the bottom, surfaces and then executes a skin dive to recover and put gear back on. Only exposure suit and boots are not removed.

I was trying to imagine this "skill" done horizontal and in mid water.

They also must be capable of performing all skills horizontal and in midwater

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As for going after the agencies that allow this quickie stuff to go on? Not much I can do right now. I can hope that my book is successful and people use the information in it to start demanding more comprehensive training and more accountability from instructors and shops. I hope that by giving them some guidelines they will be able to find the training they want and need. There will always be those who want instant gratification and quick results. Fine for them. They just will not get it from me and instructors like me who think that training should meet the RSTC standard that some of it's own members observe only when it's convenient or doesn't hurt the bottom line.

I am serious about this Jim, a large part of my impression of you is fueled by your tireless bashing. Could you perhaps be a little more clear about that last underlined part? Please give us the proof you have of RSTC members not observing RSTC Standards because it's not convenient or hurt's "their" bottom line.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Ok as long as we are being picky the doff and don is a task loading exercise made up of different skills. And the fact is many students do perform it in midwater. And will be in a horizontal position when they do it for the most part. Some things would be just too hard. As for what these people are not getting I stated that in one of .y posts already

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I feel Jim's pain, but you cannot save the lemmings, just report the leaders of the lemmings for violations and hope they care.

..

I will end this rant with a question "who is John Galt?"

Just so you know, it has pretty much been accepted by scientists and historians that lemmings don't blindly follow their leader to an ignorant death and the old film of lemmings running of the cliff was staged; they were herded by humans and fleeing in human induced panic.

Was John Galt the old coot who organized the lemming tragedy?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Ok as long as we are being picky the doff and don is a task loading exercise made up of different skills. And many students for the most part are horizontal for much of it. And in midwater.

As for what they are not getting I stated that in a post already. When they don't know how to weight themselves that is a safety issue, when they cannot perform a basic rescue, that is a safety issue, when they do not know that proper buddy procedures dictate pace, position, and rates of ascent and descent that is a safety issue. When they are taken into open water by those not qualified or permitted to by standards that is a safety issue. When they are not informed enough to know that they cannot get air or rent tanks that is a safety issue. Enough?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As for what these people are not getting I stated that in one of .y posts already

If this is an answer to one of my questions, could you please tell me which of my questions it answers and at least tell me the post # where you explained what they are not getting. My recollection is that I did not ask a question that could have been answered this way.