Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[Jim Lapenta]

RSTC standards state that an ow diver at the end of their class should be able to plan, execute, and safely return from a dive with a buddy of equal training. In conditions equal to or better than that in which they trained. With no professional present. Is this the case with each diver you see? If not why does an agency say that you can give them a card. Does the agency forbid you from issuing a card if you feel these divers do not meet this requirement? They should if the RSTC standard means anything. Otherwise why are you allowed to put them in the water for any other reason than to issue another cert and collect another fee for it?

 

[peterbj7]

And yes the doff and don is a required skill. Student removes gear, leaves it on the bottom, surfaces and then executes a skin dive to recover and put gear back on. Only exposure suit and boots are not removed.

And weights as well (are not removed), presumably? Otherwise how will they get down to their gear?

I've done this skill a number of times, most notably at 170ft (not in a swimming pool) during a tech instructor course. Had to remove all my gear (including mask), swim 50 ft, share air, swim back and don my gear. The difference was that all my gear had been moved when I got back to it, regulators turned off, etc. That is getting to be real task loading.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As far as weights it depends. In 10 feet of water a skin or 3 mil does add some challenge but it is doable. In a 5 or 7 then you do need to leave some on. Mostly though with ow students we are in a heated pool so thin protection is all that's required. We do not turn off air. Tie things together, unhook inflators or move things around. That happens in master diver and dm classes :=)

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As for going after the agencies that allow this quickie stuff to go on? Not much I can do right now. I can hope that my book is successful and people use the information in it to start demanding more comprehensive training and more accountability from instructors and shops. I hope that by giving them some guidelines they will be able to find the training they want and need. There will always be those who want instant gratification and quick results. Fine for them. They just will not get it from me and instructors like me who think that training should meet the RSTC standard that some of it's own members observe only when it's convenient or doesn't hurt the bottom line.

I am serious about this Jim, a large part of my impression of you is fueled by your tireless bashing. Could you perhaps be a little more clear about that last underlined part? Please give us the proof you have of RSTC members not observing RSTC Standards because it's not convenient or hurt's "their" bottom line.

RSTC standards state that an ow diver at the end of their class should be able to plan, execute, and safely return from a dive with a buddy of equal training. In conditions equal to or better than that in which they trained. With no professional present. Is this the case with each diver you see? If not why does an agency say that you can give them a card. Does the agency forbid you from issuing a card if you feel these divers do not meet this requirement? They should if the RSTC standard means anything. Otherwise why are you allowed to put them in the water for any other reason than to issue another cert and collect another fee for it?

Again Jim, I am asking for your proof that an RSTC Member is not observing RSTC Standards because it's not convenient or hurt's their bottom line. My certified OW divers are in my opinion all capable of making a dive with any other of my certified OW divers at the dive sites where they were trained. At the end of their course I tell them I think they could make said dives. Some of them tell me they will continue to dive with Pro's. That is their decision.

My best ever Jr OW diver has made every one of her dozen Intro dives, 4 OW training dives, 5 AOW training dives and probably 20 certified fun dives with me (and her dad, and usually her older brother). Her dad and brother, who were certified AOW by my predecessor at the resort I was working at when I first met them, have made every Maui dive with me since we met. They have paid my two subsequent employers rates to dive with me and have made numerous independent guided shore and boat dives with me.

I have not quoted them a price other than the boat operators prices for the last three years (including her AOW) and dad has always paid me more than the going rate of my "Wailea" peers (plus gratuity). They are like family and could easily make dives anywhere in Hawaii without a Pro, but they evidently have such a good experience on nearly every dive with me that even after a somewhat disastrous return from a recent Backwall Molokini Kayak dive with the now 19 year old Seattle NAUI DMC son, dad paid me and still plans to dive with me as a paid guide when he visits this winter.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And weights as well (are not removed), presumably? Otherwise how will they get down to their gear?

I've done this skill a number of times, most notably at 170ft (not in a swimming pool) during a tech instructor course. Had to remove all my gear (including mask), swim 50 ft, share air, swim back and don my gear. The difference was that all my gear had been moved when I got back to it, regulators turned off, etc. That is getting to be real task loading.

That sounds like a very strange exercise to be pulling at 170 feet ... if you did that where I live you'd be lucky to be able to locate your gear, much less get back into it.

What was the point of the exercise? I can think of several useful exercises I'd want to be able to do before considering tech instruction, but losing all my gear on some "stress exercise" at 170 feet surely wouldn't be one of them ... that sounds more like a test of "manliness" than anything related to scuba instruction ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[peterbj7]

I obviously wasn't alone. I laid a line first of all, and there was one person stationed at each end of that line and my instructor trainer tailed me throughout.

The point of the exercise was extreme task loading. This was a course to become a technical diving instructor, and I think you'll agree that quite a lot should be expected of such a person. Another exercise involved a real freeflow, brought about by cutting a LP hose. Plus lots of other less dramatic but still pretty demanding scenarios.

I actually did the exercise off Miami, in a stonking current. I've done tougher courses since, like when I became a CCR instructor. If the instructor can't cope when the **** hits the fan big time, what hope would there be for his student? I fully agree with the standards required of me, and I teach to the same principles. I'm not an instructor trainer so obviously I don't get to such extreme positions.

 

[jm]

Was sitting here today finishing up an article for our quarterly journal when the phone rang. It was someone asking me about a price for certification. I told them my price and they then asked if there was a discount in they already had all their own gear and books. What books I asked? I have my PADI manual. I'm not a PADI instructor and require our own materials that are included in the price of the class. Then he informed me that he had already done all the skills and "stuff" and was pretty good with them. Where did he do this I asked. With XXX from YYY Scuba Club. We did some pool work and some OW dives and they said I just need to find an instructor to take my test and check me out on a couple dives and give me a card.

I did some checking and there is a club that has no instructor but does have a couple divemasters who are not current and not insured and are teaching people to dive. They are using a high school pool that I doubt knows exactly what is going on. They are sending people to buy gear or are selling it to them. They are then telling them to go rent tankss with no cert card. When the shop refuses to fill tanks for someone with no card they will get them filled and take these people on dives. In addition an actual instructor has taken one of these people they trained in the pool and discovered they do not know what they are doing. After that call I spoke to another instructor who has a shop doing one day courses and sending the students with a referral to him for checkouts. Right after that I spoke with another owner who informed me a shop north of here is giving away classes. But they are selling a $250 gift card they can use towards the purchase of overpriced gear. But these free classes do not include a certification or checkout dives. They need to buy a $75 PADI manual, given a quick classroom session and a couple pool sessions. They are then told they need to go to another shop to get a card and do a "couple" checkout dives. WTF is going on and why?

And just found out another shop is having some kind of internal feud and one instructor/partner is doing students on the side and sending the students to another shop for gear. Ok but then he is also doing all 4 checkouts with some students in one day. This is the same instructor who called me a couple months ago with an issue when I made the statement that he is all about numbers. Was upset that I was using his students as an example of what not to do and strive to be like. I am more and more convinced that this is a direct result of pushing diving as being for everyone and dumbing down standards. It is exactly why I am putting out my book.

I know that in the early days divers often learned the sport from other sources than formal instruction. And may still do. But what is going on seems to be moving in a worse direction. As for the PADI DM's doing what they are doing I do not hold PADI responsible and bet that if they could they'd try to stop them. But how? They are not current or insured so what can PADI do to them. I am thinking of filing a report anyway because if someone gets hurt it is not inconceivable that since these DM's really have nothing to take they will go after the ones that do. PADI, the school district that is allowing this, and anyone else they can think of. I was going to put this in the instructor forum but it is too important an issue. Every diver and potential diver needs to be aware of stuff like this.

Jim has brought up a valid point. It is difficult for a new diver to sometimes understand
WHY a SCUBA instructor is required when your friend Bob knows how to dive and is willing to teach you how but there are reasons for this.

1) A dive instructor has insurance to do this. Your friend Bob does not, unless he is a
SCUBA instructor. Having insurance does not enhance teaching ability, as perhaps your friend Bob is a gifted, natural teacher. Proper insurance is there to protect the SCUBA instructor finacially should an accident happen. What this means to the student is that there is a capacity to cover YOUR finacial losses should the unthinkable happen. Despite SCUBA diving being a relatively safe activity, it is possible that something could go wrong. A simple slip or fall wearing heavy SCUBA gear could leave you in a bad situation. If you are seriously injured or (God forbid) lose your life due to a mistake or oversight of your insured SCUBA instructor you or your family can recover most of your economic damages. You would then be assured of having a reasonable quality of life despite your injury or at least the family you leave behind will not be left destitute. If this same horrible scenario plays out with Bob teaching you the only option for you or your family may be to sue Bob. If he lives in a mansion you are probably going to be OK. If he is like the rest of us you are in big trouble. So is Bob. If he was your friend to begin with you will definitely not be now.

2) A dive instructor has been trained and tested to teach SCUBA diving. Your friend Bob has not. Bob may be an excellent educator, perhaps even a teacher or professor. His academic skills may be much greater than that of a trained SCUBA instructor. The difference lies in that an instructor is trained and evaluated on his ability not only to teach but his ability to do so in a safe manner, consistent with standards agreed upon within the scuba diving community. No one has tested Bob to see that he can accomplish this for this particular subject. Due to this evaluation and testing, a SCUBA instructor is able to belong to one of the many recognized certification agencies such as NAUI, SSI, SDI/TDI, SEA, ACUC, PADI, BSAC, CMAS, etc.

3) A dive instructor is a recognized, authorized SCUBA instructor belonging to one of the many SCUBA Certification agencies, some of which are listed above. Here is where Jim's initial post comes into play. Your friend Bob may hold a certification card from a recognized SCUBA training organization, but unless it is a Scuba Instructor Card he CANNOT ISSUE YOU A CERTIFICATION CARD ALLOWING YOU TO SCUBA DIVE. To verify that your SCUBA Instructor is properly qualified all you need to do is contact the SCUBA certification agency that he represents to verify that if you sucessfully complete the course he can issue you a SCUBA certification card. Remember, paying your tuition fee DOES NOT MEAN AUTOMATICALLY BEING SCUBA CERTIFIED! You are still obligated to successfully complete the course. If you do not receive a "C- card" as it is sometimes referred to, you will not be able to fill your SCUBA cylinder at a reputable dive shop or go on dive trips with reputable operators. As there is no such thing as the SCUBA Police, you could in theory dive with Bob but again if you get hurt the only recourse available is to sue Bob. At some point Bob may also realize that he could get his butt sued if something happens to you, move away, or simply get bored of diving with you and you now will be forced to start over again and do the training thing properly in order to get a C- card. Would it not be easier to go through the proper steps once?

Other instructors are welcome to jump in and comment on this.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Jim has brought up a valid point. It is difficult for a new diver to sometimes understand
WHY a SCUBA instructor is required when your friend Bob knows how to dive and is willing to teach you how but there are reasons for this.

I did my first dive several years before taking scuba lessons ... with a friend who was a scuba diver, and offered to "teach me everything I needed to know" about scuba diving.

It was in a cove on Lake Winnapasauke, in New Hampster. The dive was only to about 20 feet ... because he forgot to mention anything about pressure, or show me how to clear my ears. So I stopped when they hurt too much for me to go deeper. Which is probably fortunate ... because he also forgot to mention anything about not holding my breath on the ascent.

Just because someone knows how to scuba dive doesn't mean they are capable of teaching someone else how to do it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DennisW]

One of the real issues I see here, Jim and Bob (NWGratefulDiver) touched on it, is the possibility of losing the ability to self regulate the industry. As we know, the SCUBA industry is currently self regulated in the US. We do not want this to change. If you think things are messed up now, let our legislators get into our shorts. Other than the moral and ethical issues that Jim has already stated that he is dealing with (Thank you very much Jim for being a person of character.) if congress messes with the laws and begins regulating the industry, we will be paying much, much more for classes, boat rides, equipment, etc.

Just my .2psi

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

One of the real issues I see here, Jim and Bob (NWGratefulDiver) touched on it, is the possibility of losing the ability to self regulate the industry. As we know, the SCUBA industry is currently self regulated in the US. We do not want this to change. If you think things are messed up now, let our legislators get into our shorts. Other than the moral and ethical issues that Jim has already stated that he is dealing with (Thank you very much Jim for being a person of character.) if congress messes with the laws and begins regulating the industry, we will be paying much, much more for classes, boat rides, equipment, etc.

Just my .2psi

... we already see where it would go ... in places where city ordinances prohibit solo diving, or mandate the use of snorkels.

Remember what Forrest Gump's mama used to say about stupid ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)