NACD Instructor standards violation

[Sylvester Muller]

Precisely... not only would the NACD and NSS-CDS not try to throw any agency out of Cave Instruction, they couldn't even if they were so inclined. It is a quality over quantity message. Unfortunately, it's the instructors not the agency that draws in students for cave diving. PADI has done a stellar job of equating OW Scuba Certification with PADI certification. A lot of shops and instructors are simply by passed by potential customers because of their success. Due to that, many more potential instructors want that PADI rating. Hell, if you're not a PADI Instructor in the Keys, your options are severely limited. There are lots of things that either the NACD or the NSS-CDS can do to differentiate themselves from the other agencies, but unfortunately, they are filled with Luddites and are having a hard time transitioning into the information age.

It's significantly harder to become an instructor with the NSS-CDS than other for profit agencies. It's a more rigorous curriculum to become a certified cave diver than other agencies. How could we not make safer divers? The NSS-CDS contains curriculum on caving softly and the importance of preserving the submerged cave environment. The NSS-CDS has modified its cross-over procedure for instructors because they have seen so many instructors recently from other agencies who can't pass muster with their basic skill requirements. The NSS-CDS is the reference for how cave diving should be done, and sets the standard for instruction. There is no lesson the NSS-CDS has to learn from for-profit agencies who have lower standards(and it shows), who have training directors who aren't even cave instructors. It's all good until it's not all good, what do think is going to happen if there is a fatality of a student by an agency of the lowest standards?

The NSS-CDS is rolling out a cyber-card, online certification verification system, that no one else has. They actually had to have code written to facilitate this. Students will instantly get a cyber card immediately after the class. More to come on this I don't want to steal anyone's thunder.

 

[ucfdiver]

It's significantly harder to become an instructor with the NSS-CDS than other for profit agencies. It's a more rigorous curriculum to become a certified cave diver than other agencies. How could we not make safer divers? The NSS-CDS contains curriculum on caving softly and the importance of preserving the submerged cave environment. The NSS-CDS has modified its cross-over procedure for instructors because they have seen so many instructors recently from other agencies who can't pass muster with their basic skill requirements. The NSS-CDS is the reference for how cave diving should be done, and sets the standard for instruction. There is no lesson the NSS-CDS has to learn from for-profit agencies who have lower standards(and it shows), who have training directors who aren't even cave instructors. It's all good until it's not all good, what do think is going to happen if there is a fatality of a student by an agency of the lowest standards?

I think you're stretching a bit here. I was asked which agency I wanted a full cave card for and quite frankly chose the one with the cheapest processing fee since I don't know of any difference between the agencies. If you look, they're nearly all the same mix of instructors, they often times share course books, and the standards are so close that I bet a copyright infringement case could be made by any of them. I see several new cave divers posting "my instructor teaches to the highest of all agency standards so I can choose my certification card or get them all" and it cracks me up because they're basically all the same.

I felt that academically my NAUI adv nitrox/deco/mix course was the most challenging, and skills wise my GUE fundamentals course was the most challenging. I took my cave training from 3 instructors who were all cross certified, with fundies/NAUI T1 being from 2 additional different instructors.

I'm certainly not bashing the CDS, some of your instructors are on my top list of referrals, but aside from one, maybe two agencies, I couldn't explain any quality difference to a potential student. With that being said however, you guys do seem to be at the forefront of protecting caves when it comes to fighting legal battles like the existing one with WalMart/Alachua.

The NSS-CDS is rolling out a cyber-card, online certification verification system, that no one else has. They actually had to have code written to facilitate this. Students will instantly get a cyber card immediately after the class. More to come on this I don't want to steal anyone's thunder.

TDI already has this
https://www.tdisdi.com/cert-search/

 

[The Chairman]

Pete,

I think you've taken a sarcastic question and restated it as a summary of an existing rumor, AFTER the NACD president has directly addressed this "rumor". This "rumor" was squashed by Rick and never mentioned again by anyone but you, who stuck it in a week or two and pages later.

James, it's been more than a sarcastic comment for some time. I've heard it from several different sources when I was last up in cave country. It's a rumor that seems to have quite a following among those that don't like Larry. That's the problem here in the Cave Community. Like back in sixth grade, people hear a rumor and then repeat it as a fact simply because they don't like someone. Look at the aspersions being cast at me. Only those who don't like me are doing it. It's a passive/aggressive pansy assed way of trying to silence someone. It's nothing but FUDDD. You're free to continue in the rumor mongering about me starting this rumor all you like. It doesn't change the actual facts that pettiness is alive and well in the cave diving community and they're not afraid or ashamed to use it. Look at the rumor that Rob killed the nacdmembers.com website. I took full responsibility for that and yet I got a PM telling me that I was lying about that because I was trying to protect Rob. Holy crapola! They hate Rob so much that they can't even accept the truth about the web site from a first hand witness. You can't get pettier than that! Now, where did this rumor come from? SPECULATION. Some fidiot thinks they are so smart that they add two and two together, only to come up with 48. Why aren't you condemning Cerich for creating that rumor? No, it really didn't start with him but he did voice it here. Why? I suspect you don't like Rob, so that anything bad said about Bob is just fine with you. Anything bad said about me is probably true in your eyes as well. It's all about the FUDDD, or maybe it should be FUDDDP. If you don't like someone, then they are guilty as charged. If you really don't like them, then you make crap up like lite hedded has done with me.

It's time to stop the pettiness. It's time to stop spreading rumors, innuendo and the lies. Stop the badgering. Stop the harassment. Stop the gossip. Refuse to be a party to all this silliness by passing any of this crap on.

 

[ucfdiver]

Look at the aspersions being cast at me. Only those who don't like me are doing it. It's a passive/aggressive pansy assed way of trying to silence someone. It's nothing but FUDDD. You're free to continue in the rumor mongering about me starting this rumor all you like.

I quoted you. Not sure what "rumor" I'm mongering about you. The only other thing I can guess you're referring to was when I posted in a thread that you took your ball and went home because you were upset with me over a post towards you. I posted this in response to someone who asked why you stopped participating. That was the exact reason you told me you weren't participating any longer in that thread. I can understand your opinion that I shouldn't have shared that, but it was a fact.

I don't know how either of these things translates to a rumor.

Look at the rumor that Rob killed the nacdmembers.com website. I took full responsibility for that and yet I got a PM telling me that I was lying about that because I was trying to protect Rob. Holy crapola! They hate Rob so much that they can't even accept the truth about the web site from a first hand witness.

I see a blank wordpress install on NACDMembers.com. You'd have to give more detail on what you're talking about for me to understand.

They hate Rob so much that they can't even accept the truth about the web site from a first hand witness. You can't get pettier than that! Now, where did this rumor come from? SPECULATION. Some fidiot thinks they are so smart that they add two and two together, only to come up with 48. Why aren't you condemning Cerich for creating that rumor? No, it really didn't start with him but he did voice it here. Why? I suspect you don't like Rob, so that anything bad said about Bob is just fine with you.

I don't have any issues with Rob personally. It seems he's a nice enough guy, and has gone out of his way to help many cave divers have great mill pond trips including putting them up in his own home and guiding them free of charge. More than once in this thread I've stated that I don't believe Rob should be kicked out over this alone due to the fact other instructors are doing it, the NACD bylaws are incredibly vague, and the fact that we've exceeded the 2+ year mark. Would I recommend Rob as an instructor? No.

I don't know what rumor you're referring to with Cerich. Feel free to point me that direction if you'd like to shed light on it.

Like I told you via PM, I can debate with someone and still not make it personal. I've had some pretty aggressive debates with PfcAj on Facebook *every* election cycle and we get along just fine.

Anything bad said about me is probably true in your eyes as well. It's all about the FUDDD, or maybe it should be FUDDDP. If you don't like someone, then they are guilty as charged. If you really don't like them, then you make crap up like lite hedded has done with me.

It's time to stop the pettiness. It's time to stop spreading rumors, innuendo and the lies. Stop the badgering. Stop the harassment. Stop the gossip. Refuse to be a party to all this silliness by passing any of this crap on.

I don't know where you're getting these assumptions from. All I said to you on this topic was as follows...

Pete,

I think you've taken a sarcastic question and restated it as a summary of an existing rumor, AFTER the NACD president has directly addressed this "rumor". This "rumor" was squashed by Rick and never mentioned again by anyone but you, who stuck it in a week or two and pages later.

 

[Sylvester Muller]

I think you're stretching a bit here. I was asked which agency I wanted a full cave card for and quite frankly chose the one with the cheapest processing fee since I don't know of any difference between the agencies. If you look, they're nearly all the same mix of instructors, they often times share course books, and the standards are so close that I bet a copyright infringement case could be made by any of them. I see several new cave divers posting "my instructor teaches to the highest of all agency standards so I can choose my certification card or get them all" and it cracks me up because they're basically all the same.

I felt that academically my NAUI adv nitrox/deco/mix course was the most challenging, and skills wise my GUE fundamentals course was the most challenging. I took my cave training from 3 instructors who were all cross certified, with fundies/NAUI T1 being from 2 additional different instructors.

I'm certainly not bashing the CDS, some of your instructors are on my top list of referrals, but aside from one, maybe two agencies, I couldn't explain any quality difference to a potential student. With that being said however, you guys do seem to be at the forefront of protecting caves when it comes to fighting legal battles like the existing one with WalMart/Alachua.


TDI already has this
https://www.tdisdi.com/cert-search/

Well I have to admit I am sided, probably not impartial. The new cyber card system is a lot more involved than the online TDI certification verification. It's not my project but there will be an announcement soon.

 

[PfcAJ]

Like I told you via PM, I can debate with someone and still not make it personal. I've had some pretty aggressive debates with PfcAj on Facebook *every* election cycle and we get along just fine.

If I were to agree with you then we'd both be wrong.

 

[GDI]

also, for Larry Green to turn down the offer, an offer had to have been made. Rick made it abundantly clear that LG was not being considered for the TD position....

The position was not offered to Larry Green and nor does Larry wish to be TD. Larry however is a member of the NACD training committee and will as part of that committee, work to ensure that the current training programs are maintained and the new ones implemented in a credible, proper manner, certification cards administered and standards and procedures observed and new instructors are correctly vetted.

The NACD is currently looking to fill the empty BoD, TD, GM and Ops manager positions. The TD must come form a BoD Instructor Director position. Currently a few cave instructors are being considered. These positions will not be filled by just anyone. we are looking for quality committed people from within the NACD membership as required by the by-laws. As a result of the current situation the BoD and committee members are working, fulfilling positions sustaining NACD operations. I admit there are some problems but we are working through them.

 

[Rich Courtney]

It would be nice to see some people on the board who aren't CI's...

Safe diving,

Rich

 

[GDI]

It would be nice to see some people on the board who aren't CI's...

Safe diving,

Rich

There is nothing that prevents this, and I agree it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Some of the BoD positions are non-instructor positions. Nominations need to be made, criteria met and the members vote.

Will this happen? Its up to the membership. Also there is no reason BoD members need to be from Florida. I would like to see some international representation. No reason a Mexico or European Rep couldn't serve as a BoD. I did it from Canada and around the world for 7 years.

 

[ucfdiver]

I would love to see Dan Patterson take the td position. Rick, is his name in the hat for consideration?