necklace not annoying?

[BUDMANOK]

This question partly came from seeing what some of the instructors were using doing my confined water exercises last weekend

Now that would be a good question. Why are OW instructors using octo on necklace? are they teaching it that way to students now?

 

[stuartv]

The longer hose is for air sharing. Tech divers have a 7 ft hose so that divers can swim through a restriction that forces them to go single file. Two super long hoses is more than you need and can start getting in the way of things, especially when you start carrying more tanks and gear.

Yes.... but that's why I specified Rec diving and 40" hoses.

We were taught (in my confined water class last weekend) that the OOA diver is supposed to use the alternate air regulator - not the one that is in their buddy's mouth. OTOH, I've read plenty of times where an OOA diver will often just grab the reg right out of their buddy's mouth. So, it seems like if one wants to be best prepared for any kind of OOA situation (remember: in REC diving), one would recognize that you really can't predict what the OOA diver will do and so you'd want to be prepared for them to use either of your 2nd stages (in case they just swim up and grab one).

It seems like a Rec diver that is OOA might come up to you and remember their training enough to go for your "octo" - but be too stressed to follow their training completely and just give the OOA signal and wait for you to hand them an air source. So if they just grab your alternate and if that's on a bungee that is hard attached, they might pull on it, it doesn't come loose, and then they REALLY panic. Or maybe it comes loose, but it's only on a 22" hose and they find that it's not coming to them. They don't realize why. It just feels like the reg they are trying to pull to their mouth is "stuck".

Like I keep saying, I totally understand that I am almost completely inexperienced, so these scenarios may just be completely unrealistic. If they are, just tell me.

---------- Post added October 30th, 2014 at 09:14 AM ----------

Now that would be a good question. Why are OW instructors using octo on necklace? are they teaching it that way to students now?

We had roughly 14 or so students in the pool and around 7 or 8 instructors. Of those, just 1 or 2 or 3 were using the reg necklace setup. And no, that is not how they were teaching it. All the students had the typical octo clipped to BC and we were taught to pass the octo to the OOA diver - not pass the primary and use the alternate for ourselves.

 

[Colliam7]

Like I keep saying, I totally understand that I am almost completely inexperienced, so these scenarios may just be completely unrealistic. If they are, just tell me.

You are asking very reasonable questions. Good for you. Keep it up. The way most of us learn is by asking questions, and then coupling that with a bit of trial and error. I would much rather have students ask me a question in an OW course, than to have them complain later that they 'didn't learn that' - because they didn't ask.

To answer your original questions: 1) I do not find having a second stage on a bungee necklace to be in any way annoying, or cumbersome or uncomfortable. I also did find, at first, that having my mask down around my neck was annoying and felt uncomfortable, and that took getting used to. Now, I routinely lower my mask around my neck at the surface - often to read my slates - and think nothing of it. It is really a matter of practice and accommodation; 2) I have never tried running a short alternate hose over my shoulder ('Does anyone ever put their alternate 2nd stage on the same 22 or 24" inch hose (like for a necklace), but then run it over the right shoulder and down to some kind of octo keeper') and down to an alternate holder on my chest. My alternate hose goes over my right shoulder when I use a bungee necklace (usually a 22" hose). It goes under my right armpit when using the more 'traditional' configuration (40" hose), and the second stage hose is either clipped somewhere or inserted in a pocket designed for that purpose on my BCD (Aqualung Wave). If I am going to donate a second stage other than what is in my mouth, a 22" hose would be quite awkward - for me.

In your case, I would suggest you try both - put a second stage on a bungee necklace, and see what it feels like, and try running the alternate hose OVER you right shoulder and clipping it somewhere, instead of under your shoulder. Notwithstanding the fact that there is a bit of chest-thumping here in SB at times, and that many of use have our definite preferences, you are free to try different approaches, to see what suits you. You would be better served to try a bungeed necklace configuration, even if you ultimately decide it is annoying / cumbersome / etc. - for you - than to presume it is (or isn't) without trying it.

So, it seems like if one wants to be best prepared for any kind of OOA situation (remember: in REC diving), one would recognize that you really can't predict what the OOA diver will do and so you'd want to be prepared for them to use either of your 2nd stages (in case they just swim up and grab one).

That is a very good point - there is an element of unpredictability. True OOA situations are quite rare. And, what you usually read, regarding behavior of OOA divers, is supposition or is based on single anecdotal experiences. That is actually good, that OOA situations are so uncommon that we don't have a database that reliably predicts diver behavior. The diver who is 'aware' enough to be calm, cool, and collected when coming up to you because s/he is OOA, is also the diver who would be 'aware' enough to not get into such a situation anyway. Certainly, predictability can be increased by a good pre-dive buddy check, where the divers review each other's equipment configuration, and agree a procedure (active donation vs passive retrieval, donation of primary vs alternate second stage, etc.). I don't want to have to rely on their memory of their training, I would rather have them rely on (their memory of) what we agreed just a few minutes earlier. OK, to be perfectly frank, I would prefer to always dive with people whose training was so good, and who routinely practice skills they learned in that primary training, that their reactions and behaviors are instinctive, predictable, and involve muscle memory. But, I would also prefer to have peace on earth, freedom from disease, goodwill to all, etc. Therefore, I am used to disappointment and I prefer to rely on what we went over in the briefing.

On some reg sets, I have a yellow 40" hose, and a second stage with a yellow purge cover. Since that (yellow purge cover second stage) is what I am breathing from when they go OOA (simulate it), it becomes pretty apparent which one they should go for. Most of my regs do not have yellow hoses or covers - they are black. But, for an OOA diver to grab the bungee necklace reg that is under my chin, and at least partially obscured / blocked by the second stage that is in my mouth, would take a bit of effort, more than I would expect from a stressed OOA diver.

Of those, just 1 or 2 or 3 were using the reg necklace setup. And no, that is not how they were teaching it. All the students had the typical octo clipped to BC and we were taught to pass the octo to the OOA diver - not pass the primary and use the alternate for ourselves.

There are a number of university-based OW training programs in which common (I hesitate to use 'standard') hose lengths are used - often a 30" and a 40" second stage hose - and one second stage, on the shorter hose, is put on a bungee necklace, and the diver breathes from the second stage on the 40" hose as their primary. For OOA situations (drills in the OW course), the diver donates the second stage in their mouth, then go to the second stage on the bungee necklace as their back-up. It works, and well. I was introduced to that approach when I conducted OW dives for a referral student. I now use configuration that for private OW students.

 

[Crush]

With all the talk here about wanting identical 2nds for primary and alternate, and the desire for redundancy, what I was wondering was why that setup instead of identical 2nds, both on 40" (or whatever) hoses, both under the right arm, one into a necklace and one into the diver's mouth? Then the 2nds could be used interchangeably and if a panicked OOA diver just grabbed one of your regs, it wouldn't matter which one they grabbed.

Hey stuartv - like Colliam7 said, keep asking questions and ignore the cranky posts. In the future if you post in the new divers and those interested in diving section you may find it more friendly - that is a flame-free zone.

It is possible that an OOA diver could try to grab my bungied octo. If that happenned I would proactively pull my reg out of my mouth (while they are tugging on my octo) and offer it to the diver. I'm pretty sure they would grab the offered reg.

 

[Akimbo]

I find the standby regulator necklace really annoying, but never liked anything bigger than a drysuit inflator valve on my chest or stomach. I do necklace my primary and donate the secondary, which is firmly bungeed to my lower harness.

 

[TSandM]

Remember that, if the diver is in a horizontal position (as most good divers are when they are swimming), the bungied backup is not very easily visible. The visible reg is the one in your mouth. The diver coming to you for gas is either okay, in which case they will signal for donation, or not at all okay, in which case they will likely go for the first regulator they see, which is the one the bubbles are coming out of

 

[CptTightPants21]

---------- Post added October 30th, 2014 at 09:14 AM ----------

We had roughly 14 or so students in the pool and around 7 or 8 instructors. Of those, just 1 or 2 or 3 were using the reg necklace setup. And no, that is not how they were teaching it. All the students had the typical octo clipped to BC and we were taught to pass the octo to the OOA diver - not pass the primary and use the alternate for ourselves.

I view the passing of the octo (ESPECIALLY one clipped off) to an OOA diver to be piss poor training and just flat out wrong. You donate primary and use a necklace for a variety of reasons.

1. It is the working regulator. Period. I heard a story where a guy had an OOA emergency from a free flow at depth, buddy handed him the primary and took the octo only to find out the his octo wasn't breathing correctly and had a problem. They had to buddy breathe to the surface. Now suppose the diver had been a little more panicked, and the guy had given the octo that wasn't working---that will create massive amounts of panic and you or the OOA diver could die as a result of this stupidity.

2. It is the easiest regulator to find and hand off correctly. It is in front of your face..doesn't get any easier. Try grabbing the octo in one those retarded octo holders attached to the BC; 9/10 you will grab the actual second stage and try to hand it off, blocking the purge button. You grab the hose of the primary on the side to donate, simple, easy, basically second nature with a little practice.

 

[halocline]

Remember that, if the diver is in a horizontal position (as most good divers are when they are swimming), the bungied backup is not very easily visible. The visible reg is the one in your mouth. The diver coming to you for gas is either okay, in which case they will signal for donation, or not at all okay, in which case they will likely go for the first regulator they see, which is the one the bubbles are coming out of

This is very true, and as I mentioned earlier, it's happened to me twice. You would not believe how fast someone can swipe the regulator right out of your mouth. Both times the diver's life was likely not in jeopardy, but they sure wanted an air source, NOW!!!

With the long hose and the bungeed necklace alternate, both incidents were amazingly stress free, (well for me at least) with a leisurely trip to the surface.

 

[C Dub]

Hey Stuart,

When I finished my OW, I decided to go with DIR practices right away, including the necklaced back up regulator. It has not bothered me at all. Functional, easy to get to, and with some practice you can get it into your mouth without using your hands. Just make sure to tell your dive buddies that you'll be handing them the primary. So far, all of my insta-buddies have thought it, along with the 7 foot primary, was neat/cool.

Given how focused you are on all the details, I'd suggest you buy Jarrod Jablonski's (sp?) book, which is the primer for DIR. Pretty sure this is the book: http://www.hollywooddivers.com/shop/books-about-scuba-diving/fundies-book-g-u-e-fundamentals/

I'm not saying that DIR is the best way to go, I just think that since they have a well thought out and considered reason for everything they do, it will appeal to you.