Need help with DSS rig

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

I don't have an agenda.

I'm not in kahoots with Patrick.

I am not trying to smear your gear.... that's the last thing I would try to do. There are a whole lot of folks here that really like your stuff. Heck, I'm one of 'em. I've been a big supporter of your gear for some time now and I've pointed a lot of folks your way.

Your public efforts on this site have been very consistent, your method is "I love DSS gear but.............." it takes no effort to find endless examples.

I don't expect you to believe any of this... and that's a shame.

A shame for who?

Fact is... as good as your gear is, we all will have personal preferences. If I prefer to use an STA for the added stability, ease of set up and the extra weight that it provides, then that's simply what I prefer to do. Fact is, the DSS rig that I have and that I have set up correctly just isn't as solid as when I set it up with an STA.

Maybe if you were riding a rocket sled or motocross bike in your BackPlate and wing I'd recommend a STA also. The DSS single rig provides all the stability one needs for scuba diving. Properly set up the tank remains in location relative to the plate.

Maybe something ain't right with the way I have it... maybe.
Maybe I need to replace the wedge blocks. I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it is the way it is. Is that something that would bother other users? Apparently not. But it does bother me.

The real users find no problem, but you, without an agenda, are bothered.

Unless you... or someone else can show me how to make it as secure as an STA makes it, then I will continue to believe that an STA is simply a better option.... for me personally, that is.

Again, during exactly what phase of the dive is the "extra stability of a STA" such a benefit? The walk to entry? The entry? Surface swim? Descent? Ascent? Exit?

None of the real users here have reported noticing any movement of the tank, so tell me other than yanking the plate askew for stagged photos when exactly is the extra stability of a STA such a huge plus?

I fully expect you to continue this smear. Soon I anticipate reports of wing damage, failure of the various elastomeric components, leaks in the bladder, punctures, thread ravelling, venting difficulties, etc. All carefully documented with photos, all with plaintive pleas of help, with the gear you love and recommend widely.......


Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

I've never tried twisting the plate myself, however, from the pics it seems that the lower cam strap has stretched out or given in a little in the second pic. Maybe you should pull them even tighter - if they are tight enough, then the phenomenon depicted should not be possible.

Very perceptive, if the cambands are properly secured the plate will not be askew.

Also, you could try not using the wedge blocks in case they are giving in. They aren't really necessary in the sense that I don't use any such when using the independent slots and a strap holds each tank fine when tightened properly. By the way, I like to lay the plate flat on the ground or floor when I tighten the straps, but I'm sure you already do this.

The wedge blocks will not cause the plate to be askew. They serve a couple purposes, locking the cambands into the plate, keeping the edges of the cambands from contacting the slots in the plate, but most importantly they provide constant tension on the cambands.

It is possible to tighten up cambands without the wedge blocks, as you note when using the twins slots, but it's easier with them in place.


Regards,


Tobin

 

[GreenDiverDown]

If you are for real then try taking the wedge blocks out. They are to make it easier to tighten the cam bands. I like my DSS rig but I do prefer it without the cam band wedges.

If you take the wedge blocks out and tighten one cam band at a time while making sure that the BP is vertical after you tighten the second cam band then you will have no problem. I'm sure it is different than using an STA and may require getting used to on your part.

I had a similar problem when I first got mine but I use a pony bottle which can tend to pull the cam bands to one side. I removed the wedge blocks and everything is now vertical and tight.

Of course if you are trying to make it lean by not checking the alignment of the BP before you tighten the second cam band then you can make it lean if that's what you are trying to do.

I'll try it without the wedge blocks... but I really like the way they hold the cam bands in position. They keep the bands from sliding around and make it easy to keep the buckles lined up. Plus, I do believe they work as advertised as far as working to keep the cylinder from sliding without having to crank the bands super tight. But... I'll try it.

I think cecilb63 had a good idea, too. It seems to me that two of the rubber STA deals would work better than just one. Having a single one makes a point to pivot on. Two would prevent that. Or... maybe one that was a bit longer, at least.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'll try it without the wedge blocks... but I really like the way they hold the cam bands in position. They keep the bands from sliding around and make it easy to keep the buckles lined up. Plus, I do believe they work as advertised as far as working to keep the cylinder from sliding without having to crank the bands super tight. But... I'll try it.

I think cecilb63 had a good idea, too. It seems to me that two of the rubber STA deals would work better than just one. Having a single one makes a point to pivot on. Two would prevent that. Or... maybe one that was a bit longer, at least.

Oddly enough, when I was designing this system, I looked at using two "wobble stoppers"

The problem is there is no place to put a second one. Above the top camband window won't work, because that's above the crown of the tank, and it would interfer with the top arc of the wing. Below the bottom camband window would interfer with the lower locator hole, if you put it below the locator hole you are soon below the bottom of the plate, especially the small plate.

5 Seconds of attention when tightening the cambands is all thats required to get the plate straight. Once straight it will stay that way if the cambands are snug.

The wedge blocks won't cause the plate to be askew.

Of course I expect that Stephen will soon be telling me, the designer and manufacturer that it's all BS, and that he knows better how my goods should be used and made......
without benefit of knowing all the design iterations that were considered, tested and refined prior to offering it to the public, it's happened before.

Tobin

 

[theatis]

This thread really saddens me for a couple of reasons. One, that there seems to be a recurring development where DSS and Oxycheq are pitted against each other in ways that probably are not beneficial to either company and create a sour taste among proponents of both, and two, because when i was making the decision of which BP/W to buy back in December Stephen was actually one of the people who gave me some really good advice (i haven't forgotten) and i ended up buying the DSS.

Stephen, without making any allegations against you (that i could not substantiate anyway), this thread does give the impression of someone trying to find a problem and an obviously better solution (i.e. the stabilizer doesn't work sufficiently well and a traditional STA would fix the issue).

Just look at the picture labeled CWISE; first of all, the picture is framed at an angle which seems to exaggerate the problem. Secondly, based on my own experience with my rig which ought to be identical to the one pictured, there is no way that the problem that you describe - especially to the extent pictured - could occur if two conditions are met: 1) the tank touches squarely within the groove of the stabilizer and 2) both camstraps are tightened. As Floater already said, this should simply not be possible.

How can you align three points that are by virtue of their placement in a straight line and then not have them in a straight line? That's simply impossible. Moreover, when the two points that are at the extremes tighten around whatever is in the middle, then it's even more... impossible!

This all creates the impression that this is a complicated process whereas it definitely isn't. In fact, once you get the correct amount of torque in the camstraps the first time, they self-tighten everytime thereafter, at least in my experience and i had never used a BP/W prior to this one.

I hope i haven't offended Stephen or anyone else.

 

[lundysd]

Tobin,

I was all ready to order your DSS bp/harness, but after reading your recent comments on this site I've reconsidered. I haven't been impressed at all with your professionalism in quite a few discussions-turned-ugly, and this post makes me question your dedication to your customers as well. There may be nothing wrong with his rig, and it may work perfectly, but to call him a backstabber is not the way to do business, and for that reason I'm going to look elsewhere.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Your public efforts on this site have been very consistent, your method is "I love DSS gear but.............." it takes no effort to find endless examples.

Tobin, I have no intention of going tit for tat with you over everything you say but this is simply hyperbole.

I find your rig, assembled without an STA, to be less than ideal... FOR ME. IMHO, a STA improves the stability. I'm sorry that I can't say that without offending you but that's my opinion. I've tried to compliment the things that I like about your rig but somehow you take that as a "smear" and accuse me of an "agenda".

I come hear to talk about gear, mostly. I enjoy talking about the things I like and the things I don't and how one rig might be better for one guy's particular needs and how another might work better for someone else. It is sorta like hanging out at the shop with my buds. I don't come here to sell a product. I just really dig backplate and wings. Believe it or not I don't care who makes them and I don't have any particular favorite manufacturer... or at least, I have no particular allegiance. Believe it or not, Tobin, you have not perfected the backplate and wing... nobody has.

Tobin, I applaud your contibutions to the board. There are many times where you field questions that have nothing to do with your product at all. But what would really be neat would be to have a manufacturer that would come to the board with a mature, open mind willing to exchange ideas and thoughts. Just because we might have some dislikes or preferences or whatever doesn't mean we're part of some conspiracy.

I will try this setup without the wedge blocks. Hopefully that will help. If not, then I will simply use an STA. I like 'em anyways. I have explained why I like an STA and how one benefit is added stabilty. This is simply my personal feeling on the matter. It is not meant as an attack on you or your gear.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

It's 3am here in AZ and I can't sleep... thanks, Theatis!

So, I went out to the garage and took another go at this. Laying in bed I kept thinking that when I first unboxed this getup and put it together and put it on the tank that it seemed pretty darn good. I then took it down and re-webbed the harness. While I was doing this I took John's XS weight pockets off the waist belt and tried to put them on the cambands. Of course, I had to take the cambands out and then redo 'em. I struggled with the XS pockets... they didn't work...but that's another story. So, I put everything back together and went up to the shop to show off this beauty.

At the shop, I put it on a cylinder and set it up for my bud to check out. He noticed that it wasn't straight and gave it a twist to fix it. I was surprised that it moved so I tightened up the cambands and challenged him to give it another try. It still moved. Not a lot but too much for me. We got to lookin' at it at and started theorizing the why's and how's.

I took it home and tried to get it tight enough that it wouldn't move but never got it the way I wanted. I took the pictures to show the amount of movement that I was seeing. No funny angles... I tightened the cambands as tight as I would any other tank. I honestly tried evrything that I could think of to make it work.

Now... 3 in the morning and I remember that when I first set it up part of the velcro on the camband was thru the wedge blocks. I wondered if that was enough to keep it from sliding. When I re-did the cambands I didn't put the velcro into the wedge block like it was originally.

Now I have moved the cambands back like they were and I gave the cambands another good solid clamp down... maybe even tighter than before... laying it flat on the plate and tightening them down as much as I could. It still moves but ever so little... maybe a 1/8" or so and this requires a lot of effort. With the Velcro in the wedge blocks and with the cambands as tight as I can posibly get them there is no slip of the bands thru the blocks.

So... is it as secure as a STA? No... an STA is rock solid... an STA won't budge a fraction of an inch. But is this enough movement to really call movement? Probably not. More importantly, is this gonna bug ME? Probably not. As long as it sits straight... and as long as it doesn't get moved over the course of the dive day, then I'll probably be fine with it. I would imagine that if anyone were to see the movement that I have now they would chuckle and say that I would be nuts if I thought it too much.

So... I'll eat a little crow... an STA is still MORE solid... just MAYBE not enough to matter. As my friend reminds me when we're pouring concrete countertops... "It ain't critical, Steve."

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,

I was all ready to order your DSS bp/harness, but after reading your recent comments on this site I've reconsidered. I haven't been impressed at all with your professionalism in quite a few discussions-turned-ugly, and this post makes me question your dedication to your customers as well.

Why? Can you find me a real DSS customer who would describe me as unprofessional or lacking in dedication?

There may be nothing wrong with his rig, and it may work perfectly, but to call him a backstabber is not the way to do business, and for that reason I'm going to look elsewhere.

At some point the gloves have to come off. I've tried, many many times to keep the discussions focused on the realtive merits of the goods themselves, but when you are faced with a smear job, the rules change.

What would you call somebody that has thousands of dives, rooms full of gear, and many different backplates and wings, but he can't tighten a camband without seeking internet assistance?

And,

Stages false photos to create the impression of a problem?



Tobin

 

[Markdone]

As a real user, and a real person who has interfaced with Tobin both in emails and by phone, I can attest to his patience and dedication.

First, when I got the gear, not being a tech diver, I was asking some pretty simple, entry-level BP/W questions. His response was thorough, and not the least condescending. Compare that to the way some of the other "experts" all over this board demean newbies without hesitation or remorse.

Then, I even went so far as to disassemble the LPI connection, and managed to get myself into difficulty. Again, very complete, very patient, very correct customer assistance.

Bear in mind, I am just an ordinary diver, a single unit purchaser (although I am getting ready to get DSS rigs for my kids). I do not own an outlet, so I think his responses were totally based on his commitment to customer service.

When I read this board, I see other instances of apparently extreme bad feelings between posters, and I try to ignore them, believing there is always more to the story than what I have read. At this point, I'm saying the same thing to myself about Tobin and Stephen. I would also point out that Stephen has taken the time to retract some of his statements, and he did this based on admitting his own mistake in putting the rig back together.

Can I suggest a truce? We have scant representation from the actual designers of our gear, and I appreciate Tobin's presence, along with any well meant contributions that might help with future designs.

Thanks for reading.