"neutral" trim

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OK. Here are my answers:
  1. My trim is "neutral" with respect to head/foot positioning (pitch) and left-right stability (roll). I am more stable prone than supine. Yes, I dive cold water (SS BP, drysuit, Turtle fins). If I relax fully in a prone position, I will remain there. Takes no conscious effort at all.
  2. I have some lead positioned on my hips anterior of the mid-axillary line.
  3. It takes very little effort to return to a prone position from a turtle position. Due to the way I've positioned my weight, it takes far more effort to maintain a stable supine position...but I'm perfectly OK with that since I rarely want to be supine while diving.
  4. It takes very little space for me to right myself from a supine position. Just a couple small, quick kicks with my fins and some torso turning.

What you are defining as "trim-neutral" is likely unobtainable for a diver -- to be completely "stable" on either side, prone, or supine. I think what you are trying to describe is axial stability, with the axis entering your head and exiting your toes and the axis oriented in a plane perpendicular to the direction of the force of gravity. Uneven weight distribution along and around that axis really complicates matters. Perhaps you're willing to design a BCD/wing that has a bladder which wraps completely around the diver and offers axial symmetry (as defined above). That might help.

I just read dhuskins' comments in an earlier post. I agree with much of what he says.
 
Right, but what everybody seems to keep missing is that I'm not concerned with fine-tuning my trim for when I'm in a good face-down horizontal position. What I'm talking about is being completely trim-neutral, with no forces trying to pull you into any position; if you completely relax, you will remain in whatever last position you were in.

Now, what about answering my questions above?

Is YOUR trim neutral?

Thanks

I've thought about the same thing but it's going to be nearly impossible. For instance the wing alone...when you pitch up the bladder shape is going to change with more air at the top and if you pith down, more air will move to the back, changing your COB. It's a small diference but enough to make it so "neutral" trim without constant adjustment is nearly impossible. Everything else that can compress on your rig will do the same to a small extent.

Is all I can do is setup the rig so I can move effortlesly at positions close to horizontal. I do notice it does take a little more work to "push" down into that horizontal position from a vertical position. Doubles would help if our not on them because of Inertia. They are much more stable especially to that roling effect.
 
My buddy is under the impression that it's possible to set up your rig (by rig I mean the whole kit of dive gear including BC, weight belt, everything) so that your trim is completely neutral. What I mean by neutral trim is that there is no particular orientation that is predominate; in other words, whatever position you get into, it takes no effort to maintain that position - you don't have to resist flipping over.

This is possible with a wrap-around jacket BC with a moving air bubble, like the SCUBAPro Classic and a bit of luck.

For example, I'm almost perfectly stable in any position with a 40 Cu Ft steel tank and 6 Lbs of lead, a 3mm wetsuit in fresh water. However switching to a drysuit with 30Lbs of lead and a 95CuFt steel tank pretty much destroys this perfect balance.

Terry
 
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Right, but what everybody seems to keep missing is that I'm not concerned with fine-tuning my trim for when I'm in a good face-down horizontal position.

Sorry, this statement of yours threw me:

sambolino44:
A couple of years ago I really struggled with this; it seemed like I always had to fight to keep from flipping over on my back. I talked to people, adjusted my gear, etc. but basically ended up just resigning myself to the fact that I will have to expend a certain amount of effort (not much, but more than none) to maintain a nice, horizontal, face down trim. If I totally relax, I'll flip over onto my back.

As for this question:

sambolino44:
What I'm talking about is being completely trim-neutral, with no forces trying to pull you into any position; if you completely relax, you will remain in whatever last position you were in.

the best set-up I have seen for this is Steve Bogaert's Razor harness. The combination of sidemounting AL80s, weight distribution, and buoyancy compensation makes this a very flexible set-up.



You can use this set-up in cold water as well.
 
Let's talk about this concept without the use of any diving equipment whatsoever. Imagine that your body mass is neutral without a wetsuit, without weights, without scuba in ten feet of water. Imagine being totally relaxed, so much so, that you are either unconscious or dead. What position do you think you'd be found in? Upright? Upside down? On your front? On your back?

Being so relaxed in scuba gear, chances are you would turn turtle if you lapsed into unconsciousness or died wearing heavy tanks because of the relationship of weight to your center of gravity. The photo of the diver who was presumably murdered by her husband in Australia wearing a single AL tank shows her sinking on her back. Her death was captured by accident when another diver shot a photo of his buddy. You can see her in the background on her back.

If recovery divers decided they wanted to make your body perfectly neutral with a 0° angle of attack, they could do so by adding lift bags at strategic points to accomplish this. You are so relaxed, being dead, that you can offer no help by positioning your limbs or moving your center of gravity. Once they've made you perfectly neutral, if a limb is even slightly moved out of that position, the center of gravity will change and they would have to reposition a lift bag to compensate.

Now, let's say you are not dead or unconscious and you aren't wearing any gear and you are neutral at 10 feet. Get vertical in the water. How do you do that? Your brain quickly sorts out the force of gravity and your body's relationship to the spacial environment. You know which was is down, which way is up and your brain sends messages to your muscles to apply varying levels of tension to balance yourself in a vertical position. Get perfectly straight, like a soldier standing at attention. That will be more difficult and will require a greater degree of spacial processing and muscle tension to fine tune that position. If we want you to achieve a perfect position, it may require coaching, practice, muscle memory formation and heightened awareness. Now, try to hold that position prone, on your back and upside down. Your body will have to change how the muscles contract, tense and balance you in each of those positions based upon your center of gravity. There is a reason that Olympic platform divers are in shape. Being able to change the body's position requires muscle tension and work. Gravity is acting upon the body and the body must work against gravity to achieve various positions.

Underwater, we still must contend with gravity. Thanks to our ability to be buoyed up by a force that is equal to the force that is pulling us down, we can achieve neutral buoyancy, but we still must work to achieve a certain position because we still have a center of gravity rather than uniform gravity.

Now, all the factors mentioned in the articles and in previous posts come into play to achieve a prone position in diving with your equipment and your individual body composition to achieve balance.

In the last GUE class I filmed, one student spent most of his time on the first two dives on his back on a platform at Dutch Springs. At one point he gave up and started trying to blow bubble rings. His GUE instructor was happy to join him and show him the correct technique for making bubble rings.

We got the student to employ the tricks of achieving trim and by the end of the Fundies class, he could maintain a proper prone position in good trim without turning turtle of crashing onto the platform. To do this, he needed to apply muscle tension and work to maintain that position. As the minutes ticked away on the dives, myelin began to guide his muscles to remember to keep his chest and knees flat, keep the head back against the manifold, keep the fins flat, etc.

The reason that you can carry a scuba tank on land and not fall over is because your muscles work to stabilize you and achieve balance as your center of gravity changes with each step or repositioning of how you carry your tank. The same happens underwater. Your stabilizer muscles come into play to orient you and you can make small corrections by muscle movement or tension.

During that Fundies class, I played an unconscious diver for the instructor's demonstration. To fake being unconscious, I went from perfect horizontal trim to sinking to land on my head and right shoulder. I didn't swim or move any limbs to do this, I just relaxed exhaled and let gravity take over. If I had wanted to stop that descent and go back into trim, all I would have had to do was put my head back against the manifold, tightened up my muscles, keeping the chest, knees and fins, flat, maintained a slight arch in the back and squeezed my glutes to stabilize my legs. When I landed, I was in a nearly perfect position, but upside down. Also, as I breathed, I was slightly rising off the platform during inhalation and gently tapping it as I exhaled. I dumped gas from my wing at that point to be more classically unconscious and let my body fall onto the platform. But, to go from perfectly trim and prone to head down only required a slight degree of muscle relaxation.

When freediving, I only have to adjust for 2 lbs. of ballast, but it still requires my body to work to achieve a needle position for descent or to change to a prone swimming position.

When I fall of my board when surfing, I must process where down is and where up is to protect my head and my muscles work to avoid or minimize impact with the bottom.

Even if you could get a scuba rig to sit in the water in a perfect diving position by itself, you would still have to do work to keep yourself positioned. If a rig sat that way, there would be less work for you, but every single scuba tank or set of doubles that I remember tended to roll upside down with the manifold or valve facing down when BCD's/wings weren't fully inflated or with the tanks down and BCD's/wings up when buoyancy systems were fully inflated. Most people want to float legs down. When you combine them, they help balance one another out. Whether a person wants to go head down or feet down, remain prone or turtle is simply adjusted with a few tricks of muscle work and muscle memory.
 
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I think Trace also said this, but I am convinced that there is a component of learning to balance a tank that is rarely discussed. It is similar to the learning that is required to balance on top of a bicycle, and like riding the bicycle, it's almost impossible to describe WHAT it is that one has learned to do.

I do not think it is possible in cold water gear, to balance your weights so that you can be completely still in ANY position and remain there. You can balance yourself for the position you prefer, but other positions may require continued force input to maintain. (For example, I am perfectly stable in a horizontal position, and do not have to move a single thing for over a minute at a time, if the water is still. But I cannot remain vertical without finning, because my tank wants to turn me over.)

To learn to be utterly still, I had to get my static balance very close (move weights around) and then I had to learn the tiny muscle contractions that were required to keep all the body parts where they needed to be. I actually spent some time in a swimming pool on the surface, just floating and noting where my body floated and where it sank -- I found I tended to float a little left-side-down, and played with what I needed to do with posture to make me float flat. I then took those insights into the water with scuba gear, and found them valid.

In the end, I think people who get their gear fairly well balanced eventually master this without knowing how they did it.

Oh, and BTW, Sam, if you want to dive with the guru of stability, PM Uncle Pug and set up a dive or two with him. He's unreal (and very nice about helping).
 
to answer the op - no. if i totally ragdoll relax, i go head down & get vertical.

it's the difference between standing at attention, standing normally, or melting into a puddle of goo on the floor. it's nice to have your trim stable at the 'standing normally' point of body tension, but i doubt most (any?) divers can ragdoll relax and not do something weird.
 
Aha! Just as I thought! It isn't possible after all, no matter what the brochure for a Scubapro Classic BC says! (That whole concept is why I bought one, and it kinda worked, but not nearly good enough to count)

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful comments!

I just got back from a couple of dives, one with my usual cylinder, a Worthington X7-80 HP Steel, and one with a rented steel LP 72. On the recommendation of my LDS owner, I added 4 lbs for the steel 72. I just put a 2 lb weight in each thigh pocket. Buoyancy was OK, able to hold 15 ft with 700 psi and no air in wing or suit. Or at least, you know, dump as much air as possible out of the suit. Anyway, I had a heck of a time maintaining good trim at 25 fsw with the steel 72; I wanted to go feet down. It may have been a little better if I had put the extra weight on my belt instead of in my pockets, but what a PITA. At one point I thought, "To heck with it, I'll just go vertical." Then all the air burps out my neck seal, fills up my hood, and I'll all BWWAAAAWRRR! So much for that idea; I just went back to fighting to stay horizontal.

By the way, this was really just a topic for discussion more than an actual call for help. I'm pretty happy with my trim when I use a cylinder I'm familiar with and get it all set up correctly. Usually it takes almost effort to hold good position, and not too much to get back to prone if I flip over.

Learning how to get it all right the first time when you're using a cylinder or any other gear you aren't familiar with, though, now that would be good to know. I know the answer to that one, though: DIVE MORE!!!
 
I think Lynne's got the closest answer ... it's a bit like learning how to balance yourself on a unicycle. You can get to the point where it requires little effort and no conscious thought ... but there's still a bit of effort involved.

Sam, if you ever get the chance to dive with Uncle Pug, watch how he can orient himself in the water in literally any position and maintain that position. You'd swear he wasn't putting any effort into it at all ... but in fact he's using a combination of body positioning and breathing to maintain the position he wants to. We spent a lot of hours together while I was trying to learn the technique ... and to be honest, although I can manage it well enough I have to put conscious effort into it (and not always successfully). It comes with practice ... lots of it in some cases.

And FWIW - on my weightbelt I position more weight forward than backward for just the reasons you brought up in this thread.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
There are other factors as well. That's interesting Bob that you put more weight forward. I actually make sure that all my weight is behind me. Even though balance wise it would make more sense to do as you do. On a surface swim I find that swimming on my back with weight positioned forward is uncomfortable.

It's all a matter of "balancing" choices!
 

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