new divers and rescue skills

[fjpatrum]

In response to another thread in the New Divers section I thought I would start a new thread instead of hijack the other one.

Jim Lapenta was stating that even a brand new open water diver right out of basic open water training should be able to support a diver at the surface, get control of a panicked diver at the surface, bring up an unconscious diver from depth, tow and unconscious diver while stripping gear to the boat/shore.

To me that seems like an awful lot of task loading for a complete newbie. To use another analogy, it's like teaching a skier to do a snow plow and then take them to the top of the mountain for trip down black diamond experts run.

Having delt with multiple medical emergencies I can tell you that the best response in emergency situations is simply experience. Brand new interns and doctors do not handle code blue situations with the same calm and collected responses as seasoned doctors who have done it many, many times before. Also, the individual personalitites play a huge role in who stays calm and who simply panicks. Repitition and experience help the more anxious prone responders calm themselves down a little but only after they've done a code blue a few times. Trust me when I tell you that there is a big difference doing it on CPR Annie which is a dummy and doing it bedside with a real person.

Just my humble opinion, but I think divers get the most out of a CPR first responder course and Rescue Diver course after they have several dives under their belt. IMO I think they should be able to instinctively control their buoyancy and trim while diving before presented with rescue/emergency responsibilities.

There is a difference, however, between not being able to handle a situation at all and not handling it as well as someone with much more experience. IE the "best response" may be through experience but it is rarely the only possible response...

I think Jim's position is that all divers, newb to old-salt, should be able to handle those situations and many, arguably most, are not being taught how to do so.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

There is also the question of what if someone other than your buddy has a problem. What if two new OW divers come upon some one weekend cert who has gotten separated from their equally untrained buddy and is now on the surface freaking out? Do they think "hey we need to find a "rescue diver" to help this poor schmuck?" Or do they AS A WELL TRAINED Open Water level BUDDY TEAM evaluate the situation and as I have trained them to, take appropriate action and assist said diver?

What if another diver has lost the ability to stay buoyant? They cannot find their release for their belt because it has rotated around behind them. Or the weight pockets on the BC are full of crap and won't pull out. Or the inflator hose has pulled off because they kept yanking on the pull dump. They are not panicked, yet, but need help sorting this out. In the meantime they are struggling to stay afloat and wearing themself out. What do you do. Swim away from them while yelling at them to kick like SOB while you go get a "rescue diver". Or do you head over and if necessary drop your own weights, inflate your BC, and help them resolve the problem. This is not rocket science and all of these plus the unconscious diver from depth are taught in one two hour pool session and no one has had a problem doing it.

I made a promise to my late wife to never let an unqualified person get in the water as a diver if I could help it. To that end a person who cannot assist their buddy or another diver with one of these problems is not qualified to dive with anyone I care about. Or with me unless you are paying me to learn how to do these things. I do not ever feel I am diving solo with students on checkouts. Each one is capable of assisting their buddy, another diver, or me if there is a problem. If they weren't we'd still be in the pool.

People have gotten to expect instant gratification with little effort. Some entities have chosen to oblige them in the name of numbers. Whether it's divers certified or dollars in the bank. I simply choose not to go that route. My classes are longer,yes. And more intense than others. But they cost no more and when a diver leaves that class they are someone I'd let my kids dive with. Alone. Otherwise they would not get a card from me.

 

[SCUBA482]

Thanks for the follow up post TS&M..doing this from phone on road trip so less convenient than laptop..but like Jim's classes my Fundies Instructor took the time to go over recovering an unconscious diver from depth in addition to surface skills..to me, a mark of a high caliber instructor

 

[lowviz]

The last two posts are why I half-seriously stated that I don't really care about what is being handed out for OW certs these days. There is still a choice for those that care...

 

[Thalassamania]

Expecting an OW diver to be able to surface an unconscious victim, strip gear as appropriate, and transport with rescue breathing is quite reasonable and doable. What I would say, rather than, "that is too much to expect," is, "any course that does not teach this is inadequate." I've been teaching this for over forty years, many non-PADI instructors teach this, all PADI instructors used to teach this, up until it was removed from the course outline to save time. Note: it was remove to save time, not because it could not be done!

 

[Garrobo]

Thalassamania: It's all about $$$$$. Get'em in and get'em out, sell'em some gear, take their money and forget about them. The 'rescue' part of my OW 'training' involved floating an unmoving diver on the surface about 30 feet to the boat. Useless. Of course I suppose that there are some instructors who really take the thing seriously and would like to take the time to really instruct but the way economics are today you can't do this type training for the $300 or so that most operators charge for the cert.

 

[Bob DBF]

Of course I suppose that there are some instructors who really take the thing seriously and would like to take the time to really instruct but the way economics are today you can't do this type training for the $300 or so that most operators charge for the cert.

It's not about economics, it's about choice. Personally I'm not cut out to be an instructor or even a "class" DM, but I have seen quite a number over the years and they sure can't be into it for the money. My respect goes to the ones that focus on the student and can turn out a good diver.

The phrase "it's life support equipment" is not about gear, it's about your skills and what's between your ears. No peice of gear can save you or your buddy without your knowledge and skills.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[azchipka]

I think its really about the type of training a new diver wants. For example you have agencies like GUE, PSAI, UTD and similar that the Open Water course is more about learning to be a diver then other agency open water courses. Most of the larger agencies the Open Water course is more about training a "tourist diver" who really just wants to take a visit to the underwater world.

Most new "tourist divers" lack the ability to deal with there own problems lets not even consider them dealing with someone else's issues. The 3 - 5 day tourist ow course doesn't provide enough time to master the basic skills of diving, with out those trying to for example bring up an unresponsive diver from depth would be crazy. If a diver can't complete a midwater safety stop with out a line on there own expecting them to manage another diver at the same time would just have bad results.

Divers who want that level of training can easily elect to take a course geared towards a higher level of education then just learning how to visit the reef.

Now the topic of CPR and similar skills is a completely separate one, I personally think its pretty much common sense that every one should have basic first aid and CPR training. I mean its not exactly time consuming to learn, why limit the CPR requirement to scuba in some countries its required in order to get a drivers license.

 

[Bob DBF]

[Rant]
At the OW level it should not be about what the diver wants, it should be about what the diver needs.

RSTC OW Certification

Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

Nowhere in there does it p**s me off by saying "in the same or similar conditions as trained", which means to me that the instructor should also be teaching judgement as well as the mechanical skills.

If one of the associated agencies isn't living up to that standard, may be one of their instructors who has read this certification definition should let them know.

As Azchipka mentions, many agencies (also including NAUI, CMAS, and Scientific Diving prograns), seem to turn out divers which meet and exceed the the RSTC standards without even being affiliated, so obviously training competent divers can be done.

Bring back the SCUBA Diver rating if you need to train divers to be babysat, just don't give them the idea that they are competent OW divers.


Bob
-----------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan
[/Rant]

 

[Thalassamania]

Bob, in the scientific community we accomplish that (and did so for many decades before the RSTC ever existed) by having a much longer course. Come to think of it, recreational courses used to be the same length ... I wonder what happened?