Newbie DPV user questions!

[Dr. Lecter]

Another one agreeing with learning buoyancy in a drysuit very well before throwing a scooter into the mix. The scooter "hides" buoyancy changes. You have to learn to vent without feeling a need to.

Diving a scooter in cold water is definitely drysuit territory as you are not kicking to keep yourself warm.

A real scooter also requires a crotch strap to connect too, and paddle fins are superior for steering. So think backplate and wind, with heavy fins. Diving a hogarthian rig works great for scootering. Long hose keeps you streamlined and able to donate will being towed or towing.

Money for now might be better spent on a top notch class from GUE like Fundies, or UTD's Essentials. This will turn you into a far better diver before you learn bad traits.

I have a heavily modified Mako, and it works great. For under $1,000 it can't be beat. Otherwise I would buy a Genisis 600 too, but Oren is going to give me his to babysit while he can't dive right? LOL

The only part of this with which I at all disagree is the heavy fins bit. Paddle fins are awesome for steering, but even with a properly dialed in crotch d-ring, the tow effect isn't going to do your trim any favors w/r/t keeping feet up where they belong. If I didn't love my jet fins so much, I'd surely trade them in for a lighter paddle fin like an F1. Part of that is my arse-heavy revo, but a lot of it is my habit of scootering really fast and what that does to my trim.

I also feel like you at least get some tactile clues about buoyancy while scootering with the drysuit/CCR lungs; the wing isn't something you feel compressing/expanding, though, so it's easier to come off the trigger and find yourself something other than neutral.

And be careful borrowing a 600. I loaned mine to Fdarden while he was out here for mod 2, and I'm expecting him to sell his Magnus any day now

 

[fisheater]

Use F-1s for my drysuit scootering and Slipstreams for my tropical wetsuit scootering.

Peter: I might make you a deal for scooter babysitting.

 

[Peter_C]

The only part of this with which I at all disagree is the heavy fins bit. Paddle fins are awesome for steering, but even with a properly dialed in crotch d-ring, the tow effect isn't going to do your trim any favors w/r/t keeping feet up where they belong. If I didn't love my jet fins so much, I'd surely trade them in for a lighter paddle fin like an F1. Part of that is my arse-heavy revo, but a lot of it is my habit of scootering really fast and what that does to my trim.

Since I would assume you have dove cold water in a drysuit before I am sure you agree heavier fins like F1's are preferable to wimpy tropical fins or split fins for control and trim. While scootering you are pretty much forced into proper trim, especially the faster you go. Fins are only on for steering not propulsion while on the trigger.

I also feel like you at least get some tactile clues about buoyancy while scootering with the drysuit/CCR lungs; the wing isn't something you feel compressing/expanding, though, so it's easier to come off the trigger and find yourself something other than neutral.

I fully agree that there are clues to your buoyancy, but that comes with experience, which the OP doesn't have yet.

The scooter can also save your butt, as it can pull you down when you might otherwise be corking. That also applies to towing someone when they are too positively buoyant. I often get off the trigger, as we ascend, for my towed passenger to make sure they are neutral. I tell them not to let go if they are positive, since I can pull both of us back down.

And be careful borrowing a 600. I loaned mine to Fdarden while he was out here for mod 2, and I'm expecting him to sell his Magnus any day now

I know...I helped talk fisheater into owning his Right now though a scooter is not in my future, but a new kitchen is! Plus I have a boat that takes me to cool dive sites. Not really worth scootering places like Big Shark Reef, is it Fisheater?

Use F-1s for my drysuit scootering and Slipstreams for my tropical wetsuit scootering.

Which solidifies my point of heavy fins for cold water diving in a drysuit. Ankle weights just don't make sense. Although I dive the same fins for cold and warm water diving and just adjust my foot position.

Peter: I might make you a deal for scooter babysitting.

Hmmm...I think I fear the "deal"

 

[Errol Kalayci]

A GUE Fundamentals course is of course great for anyone who has not taken it. GUE also offers a DPV course.
As far as dpvs go, SUEX has several reasonably priced options for very nice dpvs. If you are purely recreational single tank diver, you may really like the Joy2 which is depth rated to 260', has 1 hour burntime at 164' per minute and only weighs 31 pounds. Price is $1,600
The next step up would be Joy7 which is a bit faster at 200' per minute, more torque and has two speed selector with a weight of 41 pounds and a price of $2,300. Of course they have higher priced units with much greater capability but the Joy2 and Joy7 (which can pull you in doubles and a stage) can not be beat for the quality at those prices.
You should always buy 2 dpvs so you will have one for your buddy or as a tow behind for longer dives as you advance.
If you take a GUE Fundamentals course from me and are interested in the dpvs, I would be happy to show you the entire SUEX line and take you for a dpv demo dive post class, etc.
www.tdsdivers.com

 

[Errol Kalayci]

joy2 and joy7

 

[Father]

Did you guys scare him away? Looks like he only posted the original question...

Errol, I haven't seen the XJOY scooters before... definitely looks like the logical step up from the Sea-Doo toy scooters as far as price range. Looks to cost about 2x as much as the Explorer-X. Not bad.
Do these use a brushless motor? I need to do some more reading up on these.

Where I dive most of the people that use scooters have the toys. It's primarily walk-in beach dives and for the kind of diving being done, the toys are fine. They're good for an hour dive. We don't do anything outside of recreational limits.

The biggest drawback is that they're performance is pretty inconsistent. Some people have a scooter that has much better speed and battery life. Some scooters, right out of the box, will flood because the seams in the plastic weren't properly smoothed out. I've flooded two... one a catastrophic failure. They're simple enough to take apart and do minor repairs on, but ultimately you do get what you pay for. I hate saying that because $600-800 range shouldn't be a short-life, disposable piece of equipment. But considering what it's being used for and where it's being used, it's pretty much low-end. I doubt Sea-Doo makes them expecting anyone to do anything more than average recreational diving anyway.

The people I dive with figure, for the price though, you could still buy/replace around 6-8 Explorer-X scooters before you would have put out as much as you would have for a Dive Xtra Cuda.

A couple people I dive with have been using the same Explorer-X for 5 years and never had a failure and have only had to make some minor repairs.

So, to the OP (5 months late), I would recommend you take into account what kind o diving you're doing. I didn't read anything in the original post that indicated he would be diving in a drysuit, going into caves, or any kind of tech diving. Considring the amount of dives he had, I would say he's probably only doing recreational. So, for that, a toy should be fine and there's no reason to spend >$1,000. The frequency of his diving should also be taken into account. If he's only diving a few times a year with no immediate plans to go beyond AOW, there's no need to get one of these $18,000 Cadillac scooters.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Here's the thing, though. Let's say you spend roughly $1000 for a pool toy scooter. If you're lucky, it doesn't break for a year or so and gives consistent pool toy performance. But in a short amount of time it will die and you will be out your $1000 while having only had a sub-par scooter to pull you around.

Here's the other route: you spend $3000-$7000 on a solid scooter, whether it's a refurb Sierra or a Genesis 600. Buying a good used DPV if you can find one somewhere like SB, RBW, or TDS gives an even better return on the approach I'm describing. You drive it around with little to no additional costs for however long you want, during which time it gives you astronomically better performance (regardless of whether you're doing free dives, rec dives, or something more). When you're finally done with it (if you ever are), you can sell it while taking a reasonably small hit...probably less than the $1000 you're essentially lighting on fire for the pool toy.

A scooter is in no way necessary for fun diving, and if you just want to zip around a bit in the water, a bladefish will do you OK. But if you're thinking about splashing out more than a few hundred bucks for something you expect to use regularly for SCUBA diving, there's a lot of reason to go big(ger) or just skip it entirely.

 

[Father]

A scooter is in no way necessary for fun diving, and if you just want to zip around a bit in the water, a bladefish will do you OK. But if you're thinking about splashing out more than a few hundred bucks for something you expect to use regularly for SCUBA diving, there's a lot of reason to go big(ger) or just skip it entirely.

Agree to disagree...
If you get 300 dives out of your $700 pool toy, you're paying about $2.30 a dive.
For 300 dives on a $7,000 scooter I could just pay my portion and rent a boat and go where the scooters can't.
Keep in mind, this is based on where I live and dive... the rest of the world may or may not compare.

People have been using the Explorer-X scooters here for at least the last 5-7 years. If you properly maintain it and don't abuse it, you can get at least 300 dives out of one. I know people who have more than that.

Having said that, I've bought 2 used ones and have had lousy luck. Partly because one was ****ty and partly because I wasn't properly checking to make sure the seals weren't rolled out. For two used ones I probably didn't even pay the price of one new one... but in hindsight I'd have been better off buying a new one. They've definitely spent more time inoperable than they have usable. Again, partly because I drag my a$$ getting around to fixing them.

Part of the decision not to buy a Cadillac scooter is I don't have the kind of disposable income that would allow for such a large purchase. Two kids, a house payment, saving for retirement, etc... the money just doesn't exist. If I had $7,000 laying around and didn't other priorities I'd definitely buy a Dive-Xtras, Suex, or Genesis...

The other problem is nobody else I dive with has a Cadillac scooter... so even if I had a scooter that could go 3 miles and cruise around for 2.5 hours, I 'm limited by what my dive buddies are using. So my $7,000 scooter becomes a pool toy anyway. Definitely something else to take into consideration when looking to buy. Buy something that's comparable in performance to what your buddies have. At a minimum, don't over-buy.

Again... this is all based on my experience and the limitations of my dive location. If I were somewhere else I might be singing a much different tune.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Yeah, my only point is that if one can swing the initial payment up-front (and a nice refurb Sierra is more like $2800-$3000 I think, with $7k being the upper limit for a Genesis 600 or a Magnus), then when one factors in the resale value you might get close to the same per-dive cost and a lot better performance with a more serious DPV. Conversely, the lower up-front cost of the pool toy versions tends to be offset by a very low to zero resale value.

Whether the increased performance of a more expensive DPV is of any added use/fun depends on one's circumstances, as you say. Though I do have a lot of fun just power snorkeling on mine, no buddies involved...kinda like a dirt bike for the underwater world.

 

[Father]

The resale value of the pool toys varies here.
Depending on how you define it, tech diving is more or less prohibited here. (130' limit; no deco; no Trimix/rebreather; no penetration)
You can dress the part but at the end of the day you're still just a recreational diver.

As such, most of the divers here don't look to go all out and spend big money on a Cadillac DPV. Some don't even want to spend the big money on a new pool toy and are happy to buy a used one for slightly over 1/2 the original price. So it's possible to get a return on them depending on timing, demand, and condition.

If you have a dive buddy that also has a Cadillac scooter, you're good to go. Then you're probably limited more by how much gas you can carry and how good your navigation is.

Generally, anything beyond the range of an Explorer-X can easily be gotten to on a rental boat. 4 people on a boat will generally only run about $15-30/person.

I only know of two people who are about to get Dive-X scooters. I'm looking forward to hearing how that goes for them and if they can stir up enough interest to get others to buy them.

I'm on the fence personally. If I could afford a high-end scooter I could probably afford a new/used RIB.