Nitrox gas separation

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I guess I will accept your opinion (you being a ChemE) over the "experts" who posted above.
Hey, now... just because I don't work in the field doesn't mean *my* chemical engineering degree counts for nothing. :D
But I am curious as to whether or not, in your opinion, 3000 psi has any impact on the possibility of the gas mix separating somewhat ? I got a nitrox fill the other day and personally witnessed the different analyses before and after rolling the tank around on the floor for a few minutes. Is it not theoretically possible for a "mixture" of gasses having different densities to separate ?
Actually, being at 3000 psi *does* have some bearing on gas behavior. The higher density means the mean free path of the molecules in the cylinder will be reduced, which means diffusion effects may be slowed.

Take a very special room pressurized to 3000 psi and kept precisely at, say, 75°F. In this room, take an open cylinder (anchored securely in a massive, unmoving fixture) and fill it completely with 75°F nitrogen. Now, *very* slowly pour (through a straw, from the bottom up) enough 75°F oxygen into the cylinder to make it 21% oxygen inside. *Very* gently secure the valve. If you did this *just* right, you now have a cylinder with the oxygen on the bottom with the nitrogen floating on top. As everything is kept *precisely* at uniform temperature, there is no convection in the gases inside cylinder. As the cylinder is held "perfectly" still, there is no inertial "stirring". In this situation, the mixing inside the cylinder will be limited to diffusion effects only. It would, of course, be quite prohibitive to actually perform the experiment.

The thing to note, however, is that even in our very contrived example, we're not talking about the gases *separating*. The only thing we're doing is slowing down the rate at which the gases are *mixing* on their way toward the well-mixed state. Entropy (i.e. the randomness of the system) increases, as they say ("they" generally being people referring to the "second law of thermodynamics").

If the nitrox was produced by putting pure O2 in the tank, followed by topping it off with air, it is possible that the two gases might not yet be mixed. In this case, rolling the tank would cause the two to mix.
[...]
Therefore, although everyone is correct that the gases never separate, the tank could very well have had unmixed gases and needed the rolling.
I *really* need to dig out my fluids texts and run the numbers. What I *can* say is this: If you're filling an 80 cubic foot cylinder at 300 psi/min, and if the incoming air is at 3000 psi and magically does not expand through the dip tube (basically, it behaves like a liquid), and if the dip tube's internal diameter is as wide as 4 mm, the air coming in through the dip tube will be moving at about 1.5 meters per second. Someone blowing moderately through a straw for 10 minutes ought to be enough to mix a small vessel of gases, eh?

(In practice, the linear velocity of the incoming air in our example will be greater with a less-full cylinder, gradually decreasing to that 1.5 meters per second by the time we get all the way to full. "300 psi" worth of gas is a fixed mass, at least when considered in the precision with which we're working here. A fixed mass of air at a lower pressure has more volume than the same mass at higher pressure, and when you pass that volume through a tube of a certain cross-sectional area in a given time, well, that's just arithmetic. :biggrin:)

*Anyway*, I don't have any CFD (computational fluid dynamics) software handy to do a numerical model of filling a scuba cylinder, but the thought that a single tank can be poorly mixed after filling *and* that simply rolling it will make it well mixed seems highly improbable on its face. (Rolling, after all, is about the second least effective way I can think of to mix fluids in a cylinder -- leaving it alone is the least. :wink:)

It seems *vastly* more probable that the analysis was faulty. Improper calibration, faulty procedures, and possibly thermal effects are my three guesses there. Was the analyzer calibrated with dry air from a scuba cylinder? (The "wave and smile" method is not reliable.) Was the proper flow rate across the sensor used, e.g. a metered inflator attachment? (If it's not metered, i.e. controlled by an orifice, it's "close enough" at best -- you can't precisely control flow rate through a tube pressed against the valve face.) If a metered inflator attachment was used, was adequate time allowed for the residual gas in the reg set to be exhausted before the measurement was accepted? Was the analyzer subject to significant temperature swings during the process? (If it was left in the sun and then used immediately, measuring the cold air coming from a cylinder, the sensor's temperature may change significantly from one measurement to the next as it cools down.) And of course, my favorite: If there was a dastardly knob, did I bump it *again*? (I've done more calibrations than accepted measurements on some bad days. :rofl3:)

Anyway, just a few more cents (a few likely being far more than two, considering this post's length). :D
 
Hey, now... just because I don't work in the field doesn't mean *my* chemical engineering degree counts for nothing. :D
Actually, being at 3000 psi *does* have some bearing on gas behavior. The higher density means the mean free path of the molecules in the cylinder will be reduced, which means diffusion effects may be slowed.

Take a very special room pressurized to 3000 psi and kept precisely at, say, 75°F. In this room, take an open cylinder (anchored securely in a massive, unmoving fixture) and fill it completely with 75°F nitrogen. Now, *very* slowly pour (through a straw, from the bottom up) enough 75°F oxygen into the cylinder to make it 21% oxygen inside. *Very* gently secure the valve. If you did this *just* right, you now have a cylinder with the oxygen on the bottom with the nitrogen floating on top. As everything is kept *precisely* at uniform temperature, there is no convection in the gases inside cylinder. As the cylinder is held "perfectly" still, there is no inertial "stirring". In this situation, the mixing inside the cylinder will be limited to diffusion effects only. It would, of course, be quite prohibitive to actually perform the experiment.

The thing to note, however, is that even in our very contrived example, we're not talking about the gases *separating*. The only thing we're doing is slowing down the rate at which the gases are *mixing* on their way toward the well-mixed state. Entropy (i.e. the randomness of the system) increases, as they say ("they" generally being people referring to the "second law of thermodynamics").

I *really* need to dig out my fluids texts and run the numbers. What I *can* say is this: If you're filling an 80 cubic foot cylinder at 300 psi/min, and if the incoming air is at 3000 psi and magically does not expand through the dip tube (basically, it behaves like a liquid), and if the dip tube's internal diameter is as wide as 4 mm, the air coming in through the dip tube will be moving at about 1.5 meters per second. Someone blowing moderately through a straw for 10 minutes ought to be enough to mix a small vessel of gases, eh?

(In practice, the linear velocity of the incoming air in our example will be greater with a less-full cylinder, gradually decreasing to that 1.5 meters per second by the time we get all the way to full. "300 psi" worth of gas is a fixed mass, at least when considered in the precision with which we're working here. A fixed mass of air at a lower pressure has more volume than the same mass at higher pressure, and when you pass that volume through a tube of a certain cross-sectional area in a given time, well, that's just arithmetic. :biggrin:)

*Anyway*, I don't have any CFD (computational fluid dynamics) software handy to do a numerical model of filling a scuba cylinder, but the thought that a single tank can be poorly mixed after filling *and* that simply rolling it will make it well mixed seems highly improbable on its face. (Rolling, after all, is about the second least effective way I can think of to mix fluids in a cylinder -- leaving it alone is the least. :wink:)

It seems *vastly* more probable that the analysis was faulty. Improper calibration, faulty procedures, and possibly thermal effects are my three guesses there. Was the analyzer calibrated with dry air from a scuba cylinder? (The "wave and smile" method is not reliable.) Was the proper flow rate across the sensor used, e.g. a metered inflator attachment? (If it's not metered, i.e. controlled by an orifice, it's "close enough" at best -- you can't precisely control flow rate through a tube pressed against the valve face.) If a metered inflator attachment was used, was adequate time allowed for the residual gas in the reg set to be exhausted before the measurement was accepted? Was the analyzer subject to significant temperature swings during the process? (If it was left in the sun and then used immediately, measuring the cold air coming from a cylinder, the sensor's temperature may change significantly from one measurement to the next as it cools down.) And of course, my favorite: If there was a dastardly knob, did I bump it *again*? (I've done more calibrations than accepted measurements on some bad days. :rofl3:)

Anyway, just a few more cents (a few likely being far more than two, considering this post's length). :D

Well, guess I can't argue with that . . . :D
 
Arguing with Clay on Chemistry will yield only a feelings of inadequacy.

Consumer O2 gauges are not very accurate. Calibration and re-calibration can effect the readings a few points either way.

To me, it’s who really cares anyway? Even if it is true, after tossing the tank in the car, driving to the site, tossing the tank around on the boat or shore, rapidly changing tank angles the gas will be pretty well mixed. Just test the mix before jumping in and all your worries are over.
 
That's two issues, when pure O2 is filled on top of air already in the tank, especially if it is done gently, and there is a big temperature difference between the two, there may be incomplete mixing due to one layering on top of the other, but once mixed, they are in complete solution with each other and do not come out.

Example, take a cup of very salty water with red food coloring. and a cup of tap water with blue.
Gently add the blue to the red, if you are careful, you will get layers, but once you stir them together, they stay mixed forever.

(analytical chemistry by day)

Air is added to pure O2, not the other way around, but I understand the principle is the same. I do have a problem understanding the practical aspect of the principle you are describing. Perhaps you can explain to me how you gently add air on top of the pure O2 at 3000 PSI.
 
LOL you'd think if nitrogen and oxygen separated out inside your tank, then when we mix trimix we'd really be screwed, with helium being so light an all. I'll have to invent a battery powered mixer you can place inside your tank to ensure they stay mixed :D

I'm sure I'll make a million on that one lol.

Mat.
 
Perhaps you can explain to me how you gently add air on top of the pure O2 at 3000 PSI.

If the final tank pressure and supply gas pressure are close the final rate of fill can be fairly described as "Gentle"

If you are filling out of a cascaded bank each tank in the cascade may contribute only a few 100 PSI.

At my personal fill station I don't have this problem, as I have 5000, and sometimes 6000 psi air available so I can mix up a PP blended tank with a quick "squirt"

OTOH, I just recently finished building a motorized "tank spinner" for a local dive shop. They often stretch to reach ~3500-3600 psi for air if their banks are depleted. This tank spinner is essentially 1/2 hp. 200 lbs load capacity, 30 rpm "record player" on steroids. A set of doubles can be laid on the top and rotated for a few minutes, then analyzed.

Without this mixing the gas analysis will vary over time.

Tobin
 
In the end, I decided to dive reg air since I had no idea what was in the tank. I figured this would stir some discussion. At any rate, thanks for the scientific as well as unscientific feedback!!! I figured it was bogus but knew I could get some good feedback here. Guess I looked pretty stupid shaking the tank on the boat.

If the mix story were true, the DM and I felt it unsafe in case we all of the sudden started getting pure O2 while at depth!!!! In the end, I decided to dive reg air since I had no idea what was in the tank.

BTW and for the record PSI was 3300
 
I'll have to invent a battery powered mixer you can place inside your tank to ensure they stay mixed :D

Instead of helium use hydrogen, and make sure the mixer uses a motor with a lot of sparks. That way we can satisfy the "I want to see a tank explode" crowd.
 
I'll have to invent a battery powered mixer you can place inside your tank to ensure they stay mixed :D

I'm sure I'll make a million on that one lol.

Mat.

It's been done, remember Apollo 13?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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