triplecove
Contributor
well I really dont blame him I should have checked my gear better if we were deeper my options would have been fewer and I would have been grabing fin tips or pounding my tank
No air at 40' at night
- Thread starter billt4sf
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billt4sf
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Thanks all for a great discussion and some great suggestions. I am now much more afraid of scuba diving than I was before posting this. We are not going to stop diving, but rethinking this has made me MUCH more aware of how close we are (especially as newish divers) to drowning that I had thought (see my post #39).
We plan to do this following:
1) purchase a couple of those necklace attachments that position your secondary close to your mouth, always in the same position. Would someone like to provide a specific link for purchase? It will at least give me a starting point.
2) We really need to practice our skills, esp. mask clearing and reg swapping. I wonder if we can do this on our next dive, which will be in Monterey if conditions are OK, or maybe we need to take another refresher course. I envision myself getting comfortable with the skills by sitting on the bottom and doing them over and over. I'd take suggestions on how / where to do this. I question whether I can make this happen in Monterey with the cold and surge.
3) We have only recently dived as a team (true buddies) rather than simply following a dive guide around. Now we're much more in the habit of keeping together. How do you keep with your buddy if you are going first, say in a kelp forest, and the buddy is behind you? How do you get their attention in an emergency (or non-emergency) situation?
4) I would like to encourage people to advocate for adding the mouthpiece check (and training on the experience if it separates underwater) to OW training. Does anyone know how to do that?
I truly believe that OW training merely qualifies one to keep learning. AOW is not much better.
Thanks again.
- Bill
We plan to do this following:
1) purchase a couple of those necklace attachments that position your secondary close to your mouth, always in the same position. Would someone like to provide a specific link for purchase? It will at least give me a starting point.
2) We really need to practice our skills, esp. mask clearing and reg swapping. I wonder if we can do this on our next dive, which will be in Monterey if conditions are OK, or maybe we need to take another refresher course. I envision myself getting comfortable with the skills by sitting on the bottom and doing them over and over. I'd take suggestions on how / where to do this. I question whether I can make this happen in Monterey with the cold and surge.
3) We have only recently dived as a team (true buddies) rather than simply following a dive guide around. Now we're much more in the habit of keeping together. How do you keep with your buddy if you are going first, say in a kelp forest, and the buddy is behind you? How do you get their attention in an emergency (or non-emergency) situation?
4) I would like to encourage people to advocate for adding the mouthpiece check (and training on the experience if it separates underwater) to OW training. Does anyone know how to do that?
I truly believe that OW training merely qualifies one to keep learning. AOW is not much better.
Thanks again.
- Bill
Bill, you don't have to buy a necklace. Buy a couple of feet of 1/8" bungie or shock cord, and make one. If you search the DIR forum for "necklace" I suspect you'll come up with several threads with links to pictures and/or video of how to do it; it's easy.
Remember that, if you bungie your backup reg, that means you're going to donate the primary. That requires a longer hose on the primary regulator than the 24" that comes standard, because sharing gas on a 24" hose is kind of precarious. An octo length hose will work, although if you're diving in kelp, that creates a big loop of hose for the kelp to grab. You can also use a 40" (deco reg length) hose with a right-angle adapter, to let the reg sit comfortably in your mouth. None of these parts is expensive or hard to find.
As far as practicing your skills goes, it is my strong opinion that the last thing on earth you need is to sit in the bottom of a pool and do them. All that will teach you is that you need a bottom to sit on to do your skills; in a lot of places, there is no place to sit. You are much better off picking a time in the shallows, like on your safety stop, to practice the skills in the water column. You should be able to clear a mask without losing buoyancy control, or losing your buddy, and the same with a regulator swap, or an air-share. If you have access to a pool in which to practice these things, that's great -- but don't do it sitting on the bottom.
As far as buddy positioning goes, the only way you are meaningfully buddies to one another is if you can communicate. A lot of people diving in Northern California use strong, focused lights to stay in contact, and that helps a lot if you are trying to thread your way through the kelp. If you are not using a strong light, you simply have to stay in proximity to one another, and positioned so that you can easily see one another. This means that, if you're working your way through the kelp, you're somewhat side-by-side, and that may mean that it isn't possible for both of you to pick the optimal path. To be honest, I'd kind of avoid long periods of moving through thick kelp until or unless you invest in good lights.
Don't give up diving. You had an unnerving experience that will make you a more thoughtful and careful diver. You also learned that there is no true emergency but a loss of gas, and that emergency CAN BE MANAGED by a team that has the ability to share gas, and enough gas to share. On that note, I would highly recommend you read THIS article on NW Grateful Diver's website. It's very good information, and I think you'll find it quite pertinent.
Remember that, if you bungie your backup reg, that means you're going to donate the primary. That requires a longer hose on the primary regulator than the 24" that comes standard, because sharing gas on a 24" hose is kind of precarious. An octo length hose will work, although if you're diving in kelp, that creates a big loop of hose for the kelp to grab. You can also use a 40" (deco reg length) hose with a right-angle adapter, to let the reg sit comfortably in your mouth. None of these parts is expensive or hard to find.
As far as practicing your skills goes, it is my strong opinion that the last thing on earth you need is to sit in the bottom of a pool and do them. All that will teach you is that you need a bottom to sit on to do your skills; in a lot of places, there is no place to sit. You are much better off picking a time in the shallows, like on your safety stop, to practice the skills in the water column. You should be able to clear a mask without losing buoyancy control, or losing your buddy, and the same with a regulator swap, or an air-share. If you have access to a pool in which to practice these things, that's great -- but don't do it sitting on the bottom.
As far as buddy positioning goes, the only way you are meaningfully buddies to one another is if you can communicate. A lot of people diving in Northern California use strong, focused lights to stay in contact, and that helps a lot if you are trying to thread your way through the kelp. If you are not using a strong light, you simply have to stay in proximity to one another, and positioned so that you can easily see one another. This means that, if you're working your way through the kelp, you're somewhat side-by-side, and that may mean that it isn't possible for both of you to pick the optimal path. To be honest, I'd kind of avoid long periods of moving through thick kelp until or unless you invest in good lights.
Don't give up diving. You had an unnerving experience that will make you a more thoughtful and careful diver. You also learned that there is no true emergency but a loss of gas, and that emergency CAN BE MANAGED by a team that has the ability to share gas, and enough gas to share. On that note, I would highly recommend you read THIS article on NW Grateful Diver's website. It's very good information, and I think you'll find it quite pertinent.
ArubaDiverJ
Registered
There was some great insight here from everyone. As far as the OP is concerned as a new diver as well I feel I would have done the same thing but after reading the response I see now that while moving toward the DM/buddy you can be doing other things like switching to your secondary. As they do not go over a lot of the reasons for regulator malfunction in OW certification I would have not realized you can have the mouth piece in but not attached to your first stage.
fisheater
Contributor
Bill:
Come out diving with us. We welcome newbies (because they will be assimilated).
www.northcoastdivers.org
Come out diving with us. We welcome newbies (because they will be assimilated).
www.northcoastdivers.org
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Totally agree, I use long bite mouth pieces and due to their design there is enough room to attach two zip ties, one normal and one low profile, which is what I do.
Fish-R-Man
Contributor
Regulator Accessories - Dive Gear Express I purchased one of these and they are handy. It's nice because they are adjustable so you can experiment around with the position of your second. You can also switch them very easily from one reg set to another. Once you have the position figure out of where you want it, then you can make a permanent one as TSandM suggested. They also have instructions just below if you would prefer to make your own. This particular retailer has tech tips throughout their sight. It's some good information on why divers will use one particular item over another. There is a pretty good write up on hoses and lengths you may find interesting.
The same thing happened to me in cavern class about 7 years ago. I was leading out of Devils eye with blackened mask and buddies 7 ft hose in my mouth when he stopped and tugged on me so I did, then he pushed to resume and I felt a pull from the reg and like that I had water in my mouth. Locking my throat quick I didnt choke and my backup bungeed under my chin saw service quickly. When we surfaced I told him his reg flooded and we looked and the mouthpiece was gone. Check that ziptie good on you predive evaluation and always have your backup handy. Remember, it can migrate from under your chin to almost under your right armpit so be prepared to feel to the right if its not straight down on your chest.
CT-Rich
Contributor
I don't know if I would say the zip ties are unreliable. I have had the my mouth piece attached like with one for more than 10 years and it is rock solid. If the mouthpiece was not correctly seated or the zip tie wasn'y snugged tight, it will eventually fatique or work loose. Another factor is how the gear is treated. that would also explain why this seems to happen to rental gear. if regs are having belts and tanks dumped on them, they are more likely to fail. The problem is not to spend your life micro checking specifics on your gear but by becoming aware of it and its quirks. I check my primary and secondary once when set it up, again when I gear up and again in the water. avoiding gear problems is part of situational awareness. Noticing fatigue or a bad seating is part of suiting up and using care in the storage of gear also important. all materials fatique eventually, more fin strap snap occassionally from cracking. You always need to be aware of the gear you are using, especially rentals. I have gotten leaking BCs and free flowing regs from the rental counter.
I agree that zip ties are not inherently unreliable, but you also need to get good quality zip ties. I use Thomas and Betts Ty-Rap zip ties that utilize a metal tooth for the locking mechanism.
Only speculating, but the zip ties that are failing, are likely the discount zip ties you find in a back of 500 for $2
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