OOA question. Who is teaching to give your main unit?

[HowardE]

There's a big difference in discussing what you're taught when you're getting certified, and what you do in the real world, once you find you're diving more and more.

I switched to a long hose configuration a few years ago, and have done many dives with a long hose for primary, and a bungied "octo" for easy deployment. If I find I'm with an OOA diver... It's usually NOT my dive buddy...Let's say you're diving a wreck dive with 10-12 people on a normal charter. Some person swims up to you OOA, with the look of panic in their eyes. They grab at your regulator and pull it from their mouth. Rather than kill them... you let them take it... let off some more hose, and grab your "octo" which is handily around your neck. After a few dives with this configuration, it should become second nature to reach for it there.

Just because you're taught one thing when you're certified - doesn't mean that THAT ONE THING is the way you must do it - now and forever. Once you're certified as a diver... You're free to do what works for you. There is not necessarily a RIGHT WAY... just the way that works for you in the situation you're in.

For standard open water - non-overhead diving... There's lots of options, and just because a certain certification agency doesn't teach it... doesn't make it right or wrong.

 

[tgsmith]

Note to all: Long hoses are not just a DIR/hogarthian setup. Long hoses were around long before GUE was ever formed, and tons of non-hogarthian divers(well, tons in technical diving at least) use a long hose. I know plenty of guys who use a VERY non-hogarthian setup and still use longhoses.

As for everything else, all the other members answered it. Not a agency thing, it's how you configure your gear that dictates which to donate. When I was an OW diver doing my AOW class I was definitely thrown a curveball when I did the class and I used a AIR2. "*** is this thing!?" lol. So, try not to make such a knee-jerk reaction when you see something different.....it may be the better way of doing things for THAT particular gear setup. Wait until someone tells you about French drysuits with inflator hoses No, I'm not kidding........but that one you can make fun of I guess......

 

[Nemrod]

In no place do I recall learning to give someone my main reg when I have an Octo. Every octo I have seen comes with a longer hose. My current octo is actually designed to hand off to someone.

I keep seeing posts where people say in an OOA situation you give them YOUR main reg.

NO Way. I am the one giving assistance. You get my octo. I will keep the definate good source. If the octo fails then we can buddy breathe back up but ya.. There is no way someone gets the main reg when I have a working Octo.


Now in my (out) case, our mains have 26" lines. The Octos have 34"+ lines. Why would they have such long lines if they were not designed for other people to use?

I have a sneaking suspiscion that its a PADI thing (I am NAUI trained..)

There are at least two schools of thought, maybe more:

1. The "octopus" is on a long-er (usually about 36 inches) hose and it is carried in the chest triangle and it is handed off to the OOA diver. The octo is often on a yellow hose and itself maybe yellow or similar bright color and maybe a lesser or lower end second stage. This method is supported by most agencies, manufactuers and 95+% of the diving world.

2. There is no octopus, there is a primary and a secondary, both second stages are usually identical in color, model etc. The primary is on the long hose, 5 to 7 feet, some times 40 inches. The primary is handed to the OOA diver and the donating diver switches to his seconday which is on a standard 24ish inch hose and it is bungeed at the neck. This is a DIR, tech, cave configuration that some few divers also utilize in the open water environment.

3. Yep, there is a third way, the octo inflator combo units and there is a disagreement as to which of those is handed to the OOA diver.

4. None, we used to not have all that junk, you would simply buddy breath.

N

 

[wreckchick]

3. Yep, there is a third way, the octo inflator combo units and there is a disagreement as to which of those is handed to the OOA diver.

There's no disagreement, the donor breathes from the inflator unit, the receiver gets the primary.

R

 

[SparticleBrane]

I keep seeing posts where people say in an OOA situation you give them YOUR main reg.

NO Way. I am the one giving assistance. You get my octo. I will keep the definate good source.

What you just posted tells us many things about you. First, you are not as comfortable in the water as you think. If you cannot be without air for a few moments, you're not comfortable. If someone comes up to you for air and is freaking out, YOU should be comfortable enough to hand off your primary reg and switch to your backup. Note that this is why most people who donate from the mouth have their octo as a 'bungied backup' on a short hose, right under their chin. The primary is passed off and the octo is put in place a second or so later.

You say that you will be the one giving assistance. In many cases, you'll be the victim of an underwater mugging, such as in this video -- note how the girl went for the reg in the camera guy's mouth. Chances are you're giving up your primary either way. In many cases you'll also be lucky if you aren't dragged to the surface by the person that approached you for air.

If the octo fails then we can buddy breathe back up but ya.. There is no way someone gets the main reg when I have a working Octo.

How do you know the octo is working? Most divers let it dangle, taking a nice journey through the silt, hitting the coral (and killing it ), probably banging around on the wreck... Most divers don't check their octo to see if it works before the dive (heck, most don't even check their primary).

There is NO GUARANTEE that your octo works, especially if your setup is like most other divers. If someone approaches you for air and is freaking out, having to hunt around for an octo clipped onto your BC somewhere (I've seen them stuffed in pockets, clipped on so they can't come off, practically hidden...) is the LAST thing they want to do. They want air, and they want it right then. If they can't find your octo, or can't get it to work, they're going for the one in your mouth or they're headed to the surface.



The attitude of "I'm saving you, so you can deal with what I give you" makes you sound a bit pompous -- really comes across as "I'm more important than you". Start thinking about your fellow divers and have some compassion for someone in a bad situation. Donate your primary regulator -- it's faster (no hunting for it since you know where it is), you know it works, and if you dive a bungied backup setup, you can switch to your back in a moment's notice since it's hanging right under your chin.



Donating a regulator that is NOT a known quantity might make a bad situation worse.

 

[rongoodman]

Donating the reg from your mouth means the stressed OOA diver gets a regulator you know is working and has the appropriate gas for the depth you're at, aside from the fact that that's probably the one he's going to see and grab anyway. As others have said, it's a crossover from cave and tech diving, and their equipment configuration. As an aside, even if I carried an octo to share, and kept it in the PADI recommended location, how's the OOA diver supposed to see it unless he's underneath me, looking upwards?

 

[String]

NO Way. I am the one giving assistance. You get my octo.

That theory works great RIGHT up until the time a diver panics and snatches the nearest reg they can see - the one in your mouth.

The Octos have 34"+ lines. Why would they have such long lines if they were not designed for other people to use?

And even 34" requires uncomfortably close swimming. 5ft and 7ft are far superior options giving people space.

I have a sneaking suspiscion that its a PADI thing (I am NAUI trained..)

No. Its a technical diving thing where just about ALL agencies teach it for very good reasons. One of the agencies (SDI or SSI) teach primary donation, others you can teach if you want (padi its up to the instructor).
I can only think of one agency where its explicitly banned and thats BSAC.

 

[BlueDevil]

What you just posted tells us many things about you. First, you are not as comfortable in the water as you think. If you cannot be without air for a few moments, you're not comfortable. If someone comes up to you for air and is freaking out, YOU should be comfortable enough to hand off your primary reg and switch to your backup. Note that this is why most people who donate from the mouth have their octo as a 'bungied backup' on a short hose, right under their chin. The primary is passed off and the octo is put in place a second or so later.

How do you know the octo is working? Most divers let it dangle, taking a nice journey through the silt, hitting the coral (and killing it ), probably banging around on the wreck... Most divers don't check their octo to see if it works before the dive (heck, most don't even check their primary).

There is NO GUARANTEE that your octo works, especially if your setup is like most other divers. If someone approaches you for air and is freaking out, having to hunt around for an octo clipped onto your BC somewhere (I've seen them stuffed in pockets, clipped on so they can't come off, practically hidden...) is the LAST thing they want to do. They want air, and they want it right then. If they can't find your octo, or can't get it to work, they're going for the one in your mouth or they're headed to the surface.

The attitude of "I'm saving you, so you can deal with what I give you" makes you sound a bit pompous -- really comes across as "I'm more important than you". Start thinking about your fellow divers and have some compassion for someone in a bad situation. Donate your primary regulator -- it's faster (no hunting for it since you know where it is), you know it works, and if you dive a bungied backup setup, you can switch to your back in a moment's notice since it's hanging right under your chin.



Donating a regulator that is NOT a known quantity might make a bad situation worse.

Must say I have some agreement with the original poster. In the quote above you say:
" There is NO GUARANTEE that your octo works, especially if your setup is like most other divers."

So lets say hypothetically that your occy DOESN'T work. You have now given your working reg to a panicking diver and your backup doesn't work. So they have air and you don't! Your chances of the panicking diver calmly giving back the working reg or having been taught buddy breathing are not high. So now you are the one who is at risk of dying (in fact you will die if you can't quickly get a source of air!) Now it is very noble to give you life for someone else, but it is not part of my plan. They were the one who had a problem - now I am the one going to die!

I don't think the OP sounds at all pompous. I think he is just logically saying that I want to use the reg that I know is working and donate to you the occy reg that I carry specifically for the purpose of supporting my buddy. I also don't think this is necessarily because he is not comfortable in the water without a reg for a brief time.

"Donating a regulator that is NOT a known quantity might make a bad situation worse. "
If the occy reg you donate is working I really don't think your buddy will give a stuff which one they receive. If you donate the primary reg and your occy reg is NOT working now from your perspective you have definitely made a bad situation worse - you have just given away your only working reg and you are in deep sh**!


I actually think the likelihood of an occy not working is low since scuba gear is very reliable. But if it did fail who would you prefer got the working one? Because I stow my occy in a very obvious and easy to access fashion, have it serviced regularly and check it before the dive I don't think it is very likely that I am going to run into this problem. So in general I am not too fussed about which reg they take, although since my occy is on a 5 ft hose that is the one I would preferentially donate to them. But ultimately if my buddy stuffs up and runs out of air, or they haven't had their equipment serviced properly, then I don't see why I should be the one to die. Self preservation is probably one of a humans most basic instincts! If the OP comes across to you as saying "I'm more important than you" then that is just human nature.

A buddy has the responsibility to do everything he can to aid a diver in distress and I would certainly do my utmost to ensure a safe outcome for all. However if it came to the crunch I want to be the one to go home to my family.


By the way - thanks for the excellent video link. There is a lot to be learned from it!

 

[Tigerman]

If you have a problem with your gear and need my support.. I AM more important than you!
If I dont take care of myself, I wont be able to take care of you. Simple as that

 

[HowardE]

Let's think about why would the cert agencies recommend NOT donating your primary?

Could it be that the concept of having 2 divers without a regulator in their mouth isn't safe (at least at the intro level)?