Open Water Fast Track

[Otter]

Diversauras once bubbled...
The horror story that I often hear today is that a student watches the video at home, takes the test in the LDS and never discusses the material from any section with a live (knowledgable) person. I've dived with some of these folks, and I am here to tell you that you instructors certifing students like this cannot pass my minimum standard which is whether I would let my child/wife/loved one be taught by you, not in a million years!

Thankfully I have not heard, seen, nor experienced these horror stories....

But I am curious, in the water, how does one differentiate a diver who passes the quizes and finals without discussing the material with an instructor from one who passes the quizes and final with discussion from an instructor? Do they swim upside down -- I don't recall the book or video specifically saying one needs to swim face down :bonk: ?

In all seriousness, I think TOO much is made of HOW the student learns the academics. The important fact is that the student DOES learn and the method (as modern education has determined) varies student by student. It seems the issue should be focused on ensuring that learning has occured -- which with current methods = testing. Are the tests too easy?

 

[Diversauras]

I assume that the pool training part is the same, and would therefore guess that the in water appearence of test passers vs. class attendees is not noticable. I think the problems arise when those who never had live instruction have a situtation that doesn't go as demonstrated in the pool sessions, they are not as prepared for the unexpected, and sometimes they don't have the basic information to determine on their own what happened and what is the solution.

I don't think diving can be taught as a set of imperical rules because it really needs to be addressed as a constant set of problem solving exercises that require some self assurance and a lot of situational awareness.

 

[fins wake]

Are the tests too easy?

But PADI tests are often too devious, that is, they test the student's understanding of the question through some silly twist rather than testing the student's factual knowledge. This is admittedly rather unnecessary. But it's a minor point.

I do however know of cases of instructors coaching their students through all tests. Guess they want to issue certificates and don't want a small pass rate ...

I do believe this is rather uncommon, however, and certainly not agency-dependant.

 

[TCDiver1]

Diversauras once bubbled...

The horror story that I often hear today is that a student watches the video at home, takes the test in the LDS and never discusses the material from any section with a live (knowledgable) person. I've dived with some of these folks, and I am here to tell you that you instructors certifing students like this cannot pass my minimum standard which is whether I would let my child/wife/loved one be taught by you, not in a million years!

on the above.

However, how do you know if any instructor from any agency is teaching the requisite material and requiring that students have a basic knowledge and grasp of the important material? The answer is ... you don't ... sooner or later it comes down to the character of the instructor.

And if the instructor thoroughly taught the required material and the student got it during class, how much do they remember or how much have they practiced five, ten years later?

Character of the instructor and character of the diver are most important in my mind. The agencies play a role in the Q&A of their instructors and programs but the best program is lost on those who lack the desire to master their chosen field of endeavour.
JMO

Suzana,
The CD-ROMs i have seen and used are very good learning tools IMO. I still think books have their place for simplicity but the multi-media stuff is very powerful.

FWIW i agree with all the others on here who have said nothing will take the place of face to face time with the instructor but i think the CD-ROM for example, sets a fine foundation of knowledge, to be expanded on face to face with the instructor.

 

[Diversauras]

gedunk once bubbled...


And if the instructor thoroughly taught the required material and the student got it during class, how much do they remember or how much have they practiced five, ten years later?

There can be no argument with this statement, but if the information is never presented the there is no chance of remembering years later, maybe it is just for me that I need to know that I really tried and not just paid lip service to some standard.

 

[Walter]

gedunk,

"How long per night? How many hours total? What student to instructor ratio? How many of the hours spent on logistics and not training?"

2 hours per night. 16 hours total pool time. Ratio varies from 1:1 to 4:1. Minimum amount of time moving to and from the pool - 5 to 10 minutes per session. The rest of the time is either learning skills or practicing them. Need more details?

fins wake,

"Not sure this is quite correct."

How so? You would consider a 4 week class fast track?

"It's PADI-bashing time"

That depends on your definition of "PADI-bashing." If you consider anything negative, true or not to be bashing, you could consider it so. If groundless accusations are your definition of bashing, then it certainly isn't bashing.

"isn't there a separate list on this board for agency-bashing, rubbish-throwing and other useless verbiage?"

No, there isn't.

"one should not judge the man on the colour of his c-card or on the long hose around his neck"

Agreed. There are excellent instructors who exceed agency standards and teach great classes regardless of agency. Unfortunately, the vast majority merely follow agency minimums. Some of those minimums are more minimum than others.

 

[TCDiver1]

Walter once bubbled...

2 hours per night. 16 hours total pool time. Ratio varies from 1:1 to 4:1. Minimum amount of time moving to and from the pool - 5 to 10 minutes per session. The rest of the time is either learning skills or practicing them. Need more details?

Thx Walter, i thought you would appreciate the request for clarification since you seem to be one on this board that tends to point out vaguely expressed points.

Your lucky. Many of us have to build in significant time to get to and from the classroom and confined water site.

Anyway, IMO, 16 hours of actual pool time is more than enough time for most of your ratio scale. Maybe borderline near the 4:1 ratio if you have some problem students.

We also try to keep our ratios down below 3 or 4:1 (instructor/certified assistant to student) and end up spending 12 to 16 hours in the pool, depending on the student comfort, count and circumstances.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Nothing wrong with home study. In fact, I expect students to come to class having already done the reading, cd or whatever. The things I have to talk to students about just aren't in the book. For subject that are given a few sentances in the book I have supplimental materials and personal experiences from real dives to use in elaboration to drive the point home by showing real application. No book or CD can do that. IMO, only an instructor who can relate the lessons to real situations that took place on real dives can do that. It's one thing to be able to recite a fact. Reading a book can do that for you. It's a far different thing to understand the often far reaching implications and applications of that fact. If you eliminate classroom, or reduce it to going over knowledge reviews and grading quizes then you stop giving the students the beniefit of the experience of the instructor.

OTOH, if the instructor doesn't have much experience then you don't have a choice I guess.

 

[scubasean]

Walter once bubbled...
Without gutting the in water portion of the class, and only eliminating the classroom portion, you have a course that's 2 nights per week for 4 weeks instead of 3 nights per week.

Would anyone consider that fast track?

Well...is it really gutting? How many hours is spent on instruction (classroom, and in the water) for the "long" version?

After my son spend eight hours or so reading the materials, doing the exercises, etc, his recent accelerated class spent

one three hour weekday in the classroom...
two four hour sessions in the classroom, each session on a weekend day and followed by a four hour stint in the pool.
then two six hour "days" of two dives each in the ocean for a total of four ocean dives, complete with skills work, review, etc.

So, he spent roughly 31 hours getting his OW. Are the "normal" classes much longer? If so, is it classroom time that was missed? My son only missed one question on the same test that is taken in the normal course, so that would seem to indicate he knew the material the same as others....

Accelerated in his case meant "fewer calendar days" not missing material, so far as I can tell. (since he seems to do fine in the water, can do S-drills, clear his mask, plan dives, etc..)

I'd be interested in comparing that to what a "normal" course would have spent in time (assuming all of the time is actually teaching time, and not wasted because more hours are available, but not necessarily needed...)

Cheers,

Sean

 

[TCDiver1]

I agree Mike. What's the status of your store? Still in business?