The store is done at the end of the month. I'll keep teaching, although I'll do less of it and the fill station is going in the garage. I'll have the best equiped garage in the state. LOL
Open Water Fast Track
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The store is done at the end of the month. I'll keep teaching, although I'll do less of it and the fill station is going in the garage. I'll have the best equiped garage in the state. LOL
fins wake
Guest
Nope, this issue is that you argued that
I politely suggested this may not be quite correct, trying to avoid needless flames. I see now I have to be more blunt: Fiddlesticks. Rubbish. Unqualified verbiage. Because we've been talking about homestudies on the theory all the time and this is indeed the impetus of the PADI Fast Track approach. The in-water portion is not gutted ...
Yes it is. The key point here is "groundless accusations". You haven't qualified your remarks, merely spouted opinions. :nono:
As far as the other list on this board is concerned, you write:
Actually, there is. It's called PADI vs. Diverlink, a whole section pretty unique in the Internet diving community and I suggest your comments would be more appropriate there.
Ah, another unqualified personal opinion disguised as fact. I believe this is the whole crux of the PADI vs. Diverlink suit BTW. Personally I don't agree with you at all, but this is board emanating from a country with a strong tradition for free speech.
And hooray for that! :tribute:
ScubaFishee
Guest
Okay, I think it's time for me to crawl out of the corner and speak up. Time to set the record straight. Yes, there is absolutely some shops that just have piss-poor training. I know, I was initially trained at one of those shops.
Shopped around, asked the appropriate questions, interviewed the instructor, even paid top dollar -- yada, yada, yada... and still ended up with sucky training.
In the interest of full disclosure, I will speak from personal experience...
Yes Otter, not only do those horror stories exist, those horror stories are actually true. I know. It happened to me.
Well, it happens almost that way.
For OW, I was given the manual and a video. Studied at home. Handed in the chapter reviews and took the final. The instructor (whichever one happened to be manning the sales counter when I turned them in) only discusses any questions I missed and/or any questions I asked.
Both the book and the video were easy to understand, and I understood what was presented. So, I had no questions there.
I answered all the questions correctly on the final. I'd only missed one review question, which turned out to be a matter of misunderstanding the question. So my total "lecture" time was all of maybe 90 seconds.
The problem was that by learning this way, I missed out on all the value-added information an instructor could have imparted. And I missed the in-depth descriptions, explanations, and examples that may have naturally occured if we had just simply entered into discussion about the material.
But to be fair...
On the other hand, nothing makes me tune out faster than to sit through a lecture of someone reading or regurgitation basic facts over and over and over... answering that same question for that same student again for the umpteenth time. So, I'm glad I didn't have to suffer through that route either...
A better way...
Now when I did my Nitrox and my AOW certs (at a different shop), the instructor checked my chapter reviews and answered any questions I had. He then proceeded to give me a real world lecture. He emphasised material that he felt was important enough to receive special attention, and throughout, kept asking me questions to make sure I fully understood. Just through my expressions, or maybe a slight hesitation or posture change, he would pick up that I was processing information and would jump in to add more fuel to the thoughts.
Needless to say, I gained a lot more knowledge through this method of teaching.
Upside down? No, but heads up and semi-vertical, maybe.
I didn't know any better. The book never explained about trim. I knew buoyancy, but not trim. For jiminy sake, I didn't even know I had a problem until the first time I dived with Diversauras. Not only did he let me know that I had a problem with trim (and being overweighted) but he promptly gave me a host of information on how to go about finding a solution... and was adamant that I work on fixing it!!!
Personally, I thought he was being extremely critical. Many questions later, when I finally got the problem fixed, not only did I understood why the change was important, I also understood the mechanics and cause-and-effect relationship behind the changes I learned to make. None of that was in my book.
But still, somehow I can't help but think that if there had been in-depth discussion of buoyancy with an instructor in my training, somewhere along the line, trim would've had to have entered into the conversation.
Hmmmm, at least I would have had a clue back then of what trim is. How can you strive to achieve something if you don't really know what it is?
Bingo! Mike, I agree 100%. You hit the nail right on the head!
At least in my case, I was lucky enough to stumble across Diversauras. As a matter of fact, met him right here on this board. He was strong enough to be a critic. He was informed enough to gladly field and withstand the million and one questions I started to ask, once I learned enough to actually have a clue. Oh the things that I didn't even know I didn't know!!!!
He imparts the knowledge and wisdom that he has learned through experience, and to me, that is priceless.
He was the one willing to risk me getting mad at him and still say "You NEED to go work on that!" And sometimes, that's exactly what it takes...
Why couldn't the instructors and other folks at the shop who I PAID to learn from do that? The books, the videos, that particular shop... they taught me to swim and breathe underwater. But it was Diversauras taught me to be a diver. A GOOD diver.
Why was that even necessary? Isn't that what my training class was SUPPOSED to do?
I'm still learning more and more each day... and more and more each dive.
Still, I keep thinking about all the divers out there who had the same OW training (or lack thereof) that I had, but didn't have someone like Diversauras to help them fill in the holes...
Guess they end up being good candidates for the DAN statistics list.
Shopped around, asked the appropriate questions, interviewed the instructor, even paid top dollar -- yada, yada, yada... and still ended up with sucky training.
In the interest of full disclosure, I will speak from personal experience...
Yes Otter, not only do those horror stories exist, those horror stories are actually true. I know. It happened to me.
Well, it happens almost that way.
For OW, I was given the manual and a video. Studied at home. Handed in the chapter reviews and took the final. The instructor (whichever one happened to be manning the sales counter when I turned them in) only discusses any questions I missed and/or any questions I asked.
Both the book and the video were easy to understand, and I understood what was presented. So, I had no questions there.
I answered all the questions correctly on the final. I'd only missed one review question, which turned out to be a matter of misunderstanding the question. So my total "lecture" time was all of maybe 90 seconds.
The problem was that by learning this way, I missed out on all the value-added information an instructor could have imparted. And I missed the in-depth descriptions, explanations, and examples that may have naturally occured if we had just simply entered into discussion about the material.
But to be fair...
On the other hand, nothing makes me tune out faster than to sit through a lecture of someone reading or regurgitation basic facts over and over and over... answering that same question for that same student again for the umpteenth time. So, I'm glad I didn't have to suffer through that route either...
A better way...
Now when I did my Nitrox and my AOW certs (at a different shop), the instructor checked my chapter reviews and answered any questions I had. He then proceeded to give me a real world lecture. He emphasised material that he felt was important enough to receive special attention, and throughout, kept asking me questions to make sure I fully understood. Just through my expressions, or maybe a slight hesitation or posture change, he would pick up that I was processing information and would jump in to add more fuel to the thoughts.
Needless to say, I gained a lot more knowledge through this method of teaching.
Upside down? No, but heads up and semi-vertical, maybe.
I didn't know any better. The book never explained about trim. I knew buoyancy, but not trim. For jiminy sake, I didn't even know I had a problem until the first time I dived with Diversauras. Not only did he let me know that I had a problem with trim (and being overweighted) but he promptly gave me a host of information on how to go about finding a solution... and was adamant that I work on fixing it!!!
Personally, I thought he was being extremely critical. Many questions later, when I finally got the problem fixed, not only did I understood why the change was important, I also understood the mechanics and cause-and-effect relationship behind the changes I learned to make. None of that was in my book.
But still, somehow I can't help but think that if there had been in-depth discussion of buoyancy with an instructor in my training, somewhere along the line, trim would've had to have entered into the conversation.
Hmmmm, at least I would have had a clue back then of what trim is. How can you strive to achieve something if you don't really know what it is?
Bingo! Mike, I agree 100%. You hit the nail right on the head!
At least in my case, I was lucky enough to stumble across Diversauras. As a matter of fact, met him right here on this board. He was strong enough to be a critic. He was informed enough to gladly field and withstand the million and one questions I started to ask, once I learned enough to actually have a clue. Oh the things that I didn't even know I didn't know!!!!
He imparts the knowledge and wisdom that he has learned through experience, and to me, that is priceless.
He was the one willing to risk me getting mad at him and still say "You NEED to go work on that!" And sometimes, that's exactly what it takes...
Why couldn't the instructors and other folks at the shop who I PAID to learn from do that? The books, the videos, that particular shop... they taught me to swim and breathe underwater. But it was Diversauras taught me to be a diver. A GOOD diver.
Why was that even necessary? Isn't that what my training class was SUPPOSED to do?
I'm still learning more and more each day... and more and more each dive.
Still, I keep thinking about all the divers out there who had the same OW training (or lack thereof) that I had, but didn't have someone like Diversauras to help them fill in the holes...
Guess they end up being good candidates for the DAN statistics list.
Sorry fins awake I have to disagree - that was the problem with the engineer on our course - he thought all the questions were either too devious or ambiguous. Problem was he was too intelligent.....
I think the best way to answer PADI quizes are to have properly read the stuff and digested it and when it comes to the quiz turn your brain off and got with initial gut reaction.....:boom:
What he said.
scubasean,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your son had 8 hours in the pool in two pool sessions during one weekend.
He had half the time in the water I recommend and it was presented in a short period of time so what little he was taught didn't have time to move from short term to long term memory. Sounds like the in water portion of that class was gutted.
fins wake,
"The in-water portion is not gutted"
Oh, but it is. It's not gutted just for the fast track, it's gutted for the standard class as well.
"The key point here is "groundless accusations". You haven't qualified your remarks"
Just because I didn't give details doesn't mean my remarks are groundless. The details exist. The entry level class has been gutted. A few examples of things that were once required, but are no longer:
Swim 200 yds in less than 5 minutes. This was later dropped to 200 yds with no time limit. Now you can bypass the swimming entirely.
While skin diving, recover and clear mask and snorkel from the pool bottom.
No mask breathing while skin diving.
While underwater, remove and replace SCUBA unit while buddy breathing.
Simulate in water rescue breathing.
"Actually, there is. It's called PADI vs. Diverlink, a whole section pretty unique in the Internet diving community and I suggest your comments would be more appropriate there."
You obviously misunderstood the purpose of that forum. The PADI vs. Diverlink forum is devoted to discussing a lawsuit in which PADI filed suit against the website Diverlink. It is not for "agency-bashing, rubbish-throwing and other useless verbiage?" Since we were not discussing the lawsuit, my comments would have been totally inappropriate there.
"I believe this is the whole crux of the PADI vs. Diverlink suit BTW."
That comment, while incorrect, would have been appropriate in the PADI vs. Diverlink forum as it is about the lawsuit.
"Ah, another unqualified personal opinion disguised as fact."
You may be unaware of the differences, but that doesn't make them any less real.
"Personally I don't agree with you at all, but this is board emanating from a country with a strong tradition for free speech. And hooray for that!"
It looks as if we agree on one point.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems your son had 8 hours in the pool in two pool sessions during one weekend.
He had half the time in the water I recommend and it was presented in a short period of time so what little he was taught didn't have time to move from short term to long term memory. Sounds like the in water portion of that class was gutted.
fins wake,
"The in-water portion is not gutted"
Oh, but it is. It's not gutted just for the fast track, it's gutted for the standard class as well.
"The key point here is "groundless accusations". You haven't qualified your remarks"
Just because I didn't give details doesn't mean my remarks are groundless. The details exist. The entry level class has been gutted. A few examples of things that were once required, but are no longer:
Swim 200 yds in less than 5 minutes. This was later dropped to 200 yds with no time limit. Now you can bypass the swimming entirely.
While skin diving, recover and clear mask and snorkel from the pool bottom.
No mask breathing while skin diving.
While underwater, remove and replace SCUBA unit while buddy breathing.
Simulate in water rescue breathing.
"Actually, there is. It's called PADI vs. Diverlink, a whole section pretty unique in the Internet diving community and I suggest your comments would be more appropriate there."
You obviously misunderstood the purpose of that forum. The PADI vs. Diverlink forum is devoted to discussing a lawsuit in which PADI filed suit against the website Diverlink. It is not for "agency-bashing, rubbish-throwing and other useless verbiage?" Since we were not discussing the lawsuit, my comments would have been totally inappropriate there.
"I believe this is the whole crux of the PADI vs. Diverlink suit BTW."
That comment, while incorrect, would have been appropriate in the PADI vs. Diverlink forum as it is about the lawsuit.
"Ah, another unqualified personal opinion disguised as fact."
You may be unaware of the differences, but that doesn't make them any less real.
"Personally I don't agree with you at all, but this is board emanating from a country with a strong tradition for free speech. And hooray for that!"
It looks as if we agree on one point.
fins wake
Guest
... Guess I'll have to agree to disagree with Walther, we've stated our opinions for the benefit of everybody else, neither of us will budge and we should now move on, lest this thread becomes boring. (A cardinal sin!)
Scubafishee:
Jonathan:
In all fairness, I don't mean to say that all PADI quizzes are devious, just 2-3 on average out of every 50. I generally find the revision questions and quizzes excellent, but most of my PADI instructor friends privately agree some questions should be re-phrased. (I'm not a PADI professional, and might never become one, there are other agencies.)
Scubafishee:
This is how I did my OW class and most of my other classes since. I do realize however, that not all instructors are like this, and I have seen and experienced horror stories within the PADI community as well. This would seem particularly to apply to PADI Americas, BTW. Just an aside ... Still, I have no qualms about recommending PADI training to my nearest and dearest. (Then again, I've certainly got no qualms about recommending NAUI either or other agencies. To me it is the individual level of instructor training that sets the standard, not the agency on the C-card.)
Jonathan:
Yes, it can be a problem at times, I guess ...
In all fairness, I don't mean to say that all PADI quizzes are devious, just 2-3 on average out of every 50. I generally find the revision questions and quizzes excellent, but most of my PADI instructor friends privately agree some questions should be re-phrased. (I'm not a PADI professional, and might never become one, there are other agencies.)
Well, agreed on properly reading and digesting it, but I don't really find there's ever a need to turn the brain off while diving. But I think we're mainly in agreement, so there it is.
GreyWarrior
Registered
Whichever methode of getting through the classroom material that works best for her. But, instead of certifying while on vacation she should get that done here and avoid the restrictions on her diving down there.
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