Orange Grove fatality?

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I always find those "300cuft per minute" figured from sp to be unrealistic. It takes more than 16 seconds (300cuft/min) to empty an al80 with the valve all the way open an no reg at all.

Do you know why that is the case?

Because without a reg on the valve, the pressure drops in the passages inside the valves and the valve can't flow nearly as much gas at lower pressures.

Put a reg on it however, and it will flow a lot more gas because the entire flow path in the valve is now at tank pressure.

Consider for example the really small internal diameter of stainless steel hoses in fill systems - they'll flow a LOT of gas in a very short period of time if you crank the valves wide open.

----

Now... with that said, you are not entirely off base:

1. tank valves vary in the flow rates they can support, and

2. the flow rate will fall as the tank pressure drops.

Scubapro tests their flow rate with a constant 3000 psi gas supply, and you are correct, a Mk 25 won't flow 300 SCFM at 1500 psi, but the question you have to ask yourself is how much does the flow rate have to fall off before it gives you enough additional time?

17 seconds, 27 seconds, 37 seconds - the point is that you've got a finite amount of time to work the problem before you potentially lose all your gas, ad if you're in a tight passage and can't reach the isolator, you're just screwed. That makes side mount a much better choice in some circumstances.

Back mount valve drills are no big deal in warm water, but I learned a long time ago that it's a slightly different story at depth in 35 degree water with dry gloves, a dry suit with heavy undergarments, and cold hands. In those situations I either dove with the isolator closed, or dove with independent doubles, to avoid the possibility of total gas loss, or at least losing so much gas that I could not surface without using a team mate's gas.
 
I always find those "300cuft per minute" figured from sp to be unrealistic. It takes more than 16 seconds (300cuft/min) to empty an al80 with the valve all the way open an no reg at all.

I believe Scubapro's claims, but like you said, the valves are the limiting factor. I also think their claim is based off of all of the ports being open, so I would be floored if you could get 300cfm out of an individual port. All 5 of them sure, but not one. Pedantic obviously, but interesting either way.
 
I am not saying it is the first and best option, I will also say that in all my years of doing this I have never seen a hose failure like in the image you shared earlier, I have seen them where they would lose just as much gas...but completely separated? nah....

I think the additional risks in SM over BM have been a little exaggerated when we look at the"likely" failures. However with a inexperienced diver...I will grant that possibly BM is possibly slightly better to manage in the aw s(^$ times. That said, in the incident we are talking about with all the issues.. I don't really think it is the primary factor. Divers in doubles (tech trained) have been recovered with gas in one side and isolated...

Just spit ballin here, but I've know some deep tech (300 to 500ft range) divers that carry an extra reg with a short hose and spg hose like you would use on a stage bottle, but with a shorter low pressure hose. This would alleviate the need to hold ones breath while switching out regs. I still have room in my thigh pockets for one even with my redundant items I take while cave or tech diving.
 
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It would be nice to know if he intentionally shut it off do you know if the equipment was functioning properly?

Nothing was broken. Gear failures almost never seem to kill intro divers more than 1/6ths in after a visual/suicide jump.

But was the valve partially open, starved for gas, he ended up closing it and now suddenly OOA he panicked? Who knows.
 
Nothing was broken. Gear failures almost never seem to kill intro divers more than 1/6ths in after a visual/suicide jump.

But was the valve partially open, starved for gas, he ended up closing it and now suddenly OOA he panicked? Who knows.
How do you know nothing was broken? Was that posted somewhere and I missed it?
 
How do you know nothing was broken? Was that posted somewhere and I missed it?
Not published info
Although Al did talk with Lamar and the only thing reported amiss was the right tank being off.
 
Not published info
Although Al did talk with Lamar and the only thing reported amiss was the right tank being off.
I think there's a difference between reporting the tank was off and reporting that the tank was off and nothing was broken.

At this point we don't know.
 
I heard there was air in both cylinders and I think I saw this earlier in this forum. (third post )2100 in one that was turned off and 1400 in the other that was not turned off. I think that changes the discussion to the man was not able to manage his side mount rig in a dicey situation. Did Al talk to Lamar? I talked to Al at peacock and he had not talked to Lamar at that point.
 
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I heard there was air in both cylinders and I think I saw this earlier in this forum. (third post )2100 in one that was turned off and 1400 in the other that was not turned off. I think that changes the discussion to the man was not able to manage his side mount rig in a dicey situation. Did Al talk to Lamar? I talked to Al at peacock and he had not talked to Lamar at that point.
yeah the more I hear the more confusing this is. I have been hearing lots of conflicting reports.
 
. Did Al talk to Lamar? I talked to Al at peacock and he had not talked to Lamar at that point.

If Al talked to Lamar I seriously doubt Lamar revealed anything. Lamar knows that all recoveries are considered crime scenes and under control of law enforcement. While this is an active case under control of law enforcement you will not hear an opinion from Lamar or any recovery diver. When an accident happens law enforcement requests the assistance of recovery divers, and that recovery diver becomes part of the law enforcement team covering the case. Once the recovery divers gives an opinion, they cease being part of the law enforcement team, and become an expert, which exposes you to liability.
 

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