PADI IE (Right wing instructor thoughts!)

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Walter......Thanks for your input. This is why I enjoy this board so much. There are many different levels of divers (education and experience). New divers like myself can learn much. I was trained by PADI and I agree that they pushed to continue AOW ASAP. I personally do not agree with this. It would be nice to see a set of guidelines put in place for all agencies that is enforced. I know in my area only PADI and NAUI are available. I will be pursuing my Rescue Diver with my LDS which is NAUI. I just don't like seeing us and them arguments. They are not constructive. They just create arguments. Discussion is better. More constructive. Butch
 
In PADI's defense...

I've gotten up to AOW cert with PADI (I know I know, it ain't much). But, I think my training has been far better than it it would have been with instructors of some of the other organizations.

The OW instruction classroom modules was the whole deal, with coffee, krispy kreme donuts and an animated Power Point presentation. For the AOW training, my instructor allows us to repeat any of the 5 courses we select, as many times until we're satisfied in our ability for no additional fee. My buddy has repeated Deep Water Diving and Boat Diving. Moreover, we're encouraged to dive with him and his buddies as often as we can.

Not bad, eh?
 
Hello everyone,

As a PADI diver for ten years now, and PADI instructor for six of those ten, I have to say that I have to stand behind the PADI system. Don't get me wrong I am not a left winger, I have my share of gripes about PADI just like everyone else. But I do not believe that PADI is as bad as some are making them out to be.

I have always groaned the "Put Another Dollar In" sentiment every year when my dues statement comes, or when my insurance renewal comes in the mail. But come on lets face it, there is no other agency that dumps the amount of money back into the sport that PADI does. Project Aware which is active worldwide in environmental issues. DSAT in the '80's developed the first tables geared strictly towards recreational use. There are many agencies still using variations of the old navy tables. PADI as many other agencies are also significant supporters of DAN. Although I don't like to think of all the checks that I have written to PADI over the years, I do feel that my money has been well spent.

I have no real problem with the PADI structure of classes through Divemaster, except the new trend for lowering age restrictions (but I will talk about that later). PADI does an excellent job in updating training materials and courses to keep pace with current technology and industry trends. I agree with the trend over the past few years of the open water class being more "user friendly" with a more self study approach. These things open up the sport to a greater number of people by making it less intimidating. There is no need for a open water scuba course to be fashioned after a military program as many were in the past.
We are not making Navy Seals, just safe recreational divers.

Is PADI a good marketer? Absolutely. I don't see a problem with that. Actually I think it is a good thing. It is the reason that PADI holds the highest certification rate in the industry. PADI also has an excellent quality assurance program in place to assure course consistancy and safety. The marketing is one of the main reasons that I chose PADI for my open water course back in 1991. The first dive shop I went into to inquire about taking a course was a non-PADI shop. When looking at the textbook I was not at all impressed. I noticed the pictures and diagrams were pretty old compared to the gear that surrounded me in the shop. I checked the copyright and it was circa 1979. My PADI open water manual was only two years old, and it had a copyright update about every five years. That impressed me, and still does.

I was very lucky as far as some of the mentoring issues you have been discussing. The shop I received my training was very good about offering to take everyone diving. Probally the first 50 of my dives were done this way. They would advertise in the shop "hey, we're going to xyz for a couple of dives this Saturday". It was a good way to keep people diving, and at the same time bring people into the shop.

PADI does push the clases beyond open water. This is not all for the money, it mainly is trying to keep people in the water. Too many students never make a dive after their open water training. I feel this is more our as instructors faults than PADI's. By teaching the classes you keep the students in the water and at the same time build their confidence and experience.

My biggest problem with PADI is that they consistently keep dropping the standards for instructors. I have seen quite a change in the requirement since I took my IDC and IE six years ago. I wish they could find a way to tighten the reins a little. I see too many open water divers in January that are instructors by December. I do have a problem with that. I was a divemaster for two years before I became an instructor. My eyes saw and experienced allot of things in those two years that only made me a better instructor.

My other problem with PADI is the current trend towards certifing younger and younger divers. I just believe this is plain wrong. I have turned down several twelve year olds under the old rules that I felt were not emotionally mature enough to handle the class. I find it hard to believe that there are many eight year olds out there that I would be willing to certify. As a new father myself, it would be devistating to me, not to mention the family, if a training mishap were to occur. I believe that a mishap is that much more likely with children that young.

I do understand everyone on this board has problems with the PADI system, including me. I just encourage everyone to make yourself heard. I do not believe that starting a new agency would solve any problems, maybe just create more. Just remember, every agencies course standards just creates a "framework" for a class. It is up to us as instructors to create a safe, knowledgeable diver.

Later,

Chris May
MSDT #64967
 
cmay:

The biggest problem with PADI, as I see it, which is worse than in any other agency is the moduls system.

What I mean is-the last part in your message, about the frame-work- If you work for PADI, and add exercises that are not mentioned in your instructor manual, than a diving accident pccurs, you are not covered. You are not alowed to add exercises. In your manual, you have the exact time every lesson should take. I am really sorry, but if I have good students, that are interested in the material, a decompresion class, can take well over 3 hours.

Another thing, is the PADI assumption that almost every stupid diver can be an instructor. A stupid diver will probobly turn to be a LOUSY instructor, that will create lousy divers, that will ruin the reef. Just a month ago, a friend of mine went through PADI's instructor course, and boasted that PADI is better than SSI (my agency) becouse it let's every stupid man become an instructor, he simply has to read from his manual in class, while SSI demands more knowledge on behalf of the instructor (the 80% 20%). I am not saying that SSI is so good, it's also bad in it's own things, but it is better. The only (relatively) good agencys I know are the european ones, like C.M.A.S or BSUC. In these, the "chase that dollar!" is not so obviouse, and they originaly started as just another sports association.

Another thing, that is bad about PADI, is that every instructor can go somewhere, and do whatever he wants to. Just go with some equipment somewhere in Thailand, do a crash 3-day course, and collect the money. As long as you have them preciouse envelopes you'r covered!

Sorry to be so negative, but I did see to many bad things happening.

One more thing- well, I'll have to mention that the most important thing is the individual instructor after all. A lousy instructor can be a member of any agency, while the oposite is also correct. The most important thing about an instructor, is that he cares. The problem with today's "Diver on january Instructor on december" (and I have seen faster cases) is that it is so easy to become an instructor. In result, there are just to many that dosen't care enough to improve themselves. If I see an instructor doing something that is wrong, and I later explain it to him, in a lot of cases the answer will be: "So waht? they dont even know it!".
 
Thanks for your comments Liquid,

I disagree about the module system being a disadvantage. In fact I think this is PADI's strongest asset. It is the basic standards outlined in the Modules system that allows for a standardized and consistant basic level of training worldwide.

As far as the instructor manual is concerned, it is a guide and a reference for the instructor. There are "suggested" times for the lessions, but they are not set in stone. I routinely have lectures on modules that may last two class sessions, especially if I have allot of student interaction (which I encourage). I am not in violation of standards though. For the water work, you are given basic standards for each module that each student has to satisfactorily perform. Beyond that it is up to the instructor how to accomplish these standards within the prescribed limits given by PADI (i.e depth, minimum equipment, etc.) After a student has demonstrated a skill sucessfully, I have always come up with games and such in the pool to reinforce the skills. These exercises are not in the manual, but I am not in violation of standards.

I do agree about the requirements for instructors being "relaxed" over the years. In particular, I thought it was not a good thing when PADI significantly relaxed the watermanship portion of the IE. This is when they totally did away with the 400yd freestyle swim. But like you said, I have seen some poor instructors from a variety of agencies. But just because someone is stupid, you can't tell them they can't be an instructor as long as they meet the requirements.

I think is is pretty cool that I can certify who I want when I want and do not have to go thru a shop. I currently own my own gear and teach two college courses and also teach private lessions. It is nice to not have the shop in the middle, this way I can make more money doing what I love.

I just look at it that I have to take the good with the bad. I do not figure that I will ever be totally happy.

Thanks for the input,

Chris
 
CMAY and others.....AS I understand from this thread PADI instructors do not have to work thru a dive shop. Is this correct?? If so are any of the other associations like this?? I would like to become an instructor in the future. But I will do this at own pace. I have been self employed since I graduated from college in 1983 and I don't thnk that I could "work for someone eg LDS" To be able to do private lessons etc. appeal to me. Are private lessons normally done ?? I do appreciated that it is cheaper in numbers. However just curious. I know from other threads on this board that thereis not a great deal of money to be made as an instructor, however I do enjoy diving and teaching people. I am also hoping to start my own dive shop in my area. This may all work hand in hand. Butch
 
SSI requires instructors to be associated with shops. I don't know of any other agency with such a requirement. NASDS had that requirement, but they merged with SSI and no longer exist.

WWW™
 
Chris,

Excellent post and well thought out points.

PADI is a mixture of good and bad as are all agencies. We probably disagree on some points as to what's good and what's bad.

If you'll take a good long look at various dive tables (including variations of old US Navy tables), you'll see the RDP is one of the least conservative around. If you want more bottom time, you'll see this as good. If you want more safety, you'll see it as bad.

The argument that we are not training SEALs is true but not valid. I teach a very comprehensive SCUBA course and cover many topics and skills ignored by PADI standards. I don't train SEALs either. There's no PT in my class, no demolition, no weapons training, no military training of any sort. There is a huge difference between any military training and any agency's OW course. Just because a student learns to be comfortable and confident without being overly equipment dependent does not mean they've had SEAL trainging. A recreational diver who has no confidence and few skills is not a safe diver IMHO.

All agencies could learn from PADI in the marketing department, but marketing should not be more important that education. I believe education is much less important than marketing to the powers that be at PADI.

WWW™



 
NAUI allows instructors to be independent also.
 
Let me put in my rambling 2 cents here as well. First off, I was trained as a physical educator which I did for 16 years before moving on so I could afford to raise my kids. As such I have a perspective on how to present skills and knowledge sets. Secondly, I was a Y instructor for 6 years as well as a PADI instructor. Thirdly, the curriculum I had to live to at 2 universities were based upon the Y standards when the course was created. I think I have a bit of a perspective on both programs and how teaching is presented. Oh and last, I was certified as a Y instructor in 1979, and by PADI in 1980.

For those that think PADI has made it faster to get certified, that all an instructor does is give a quiz, you are wrong. The PADI system is based on repetition, repetition, repetition. The student reads the material in the textbook. Then they complete the Knowledge Review at the end of the module. Then they watch the video, either at home, or in class. Then the instructor elaborates, then they get quizzed. By the time the quiz is done the student has seen the info at least 3 times, in 3 different ways: reading, seeing, hearing. Son of a gun, this also attacks the three basic ways someone learns: seeing, doing, hearing. The progression is very educationally sound.

The modules are also for a reason. As an example I spent the last 8 years as a corporate trainer, and treaveled alot. If I was to be out of town, I could tell the person taking my place that I was on Module 3, and I would know exactly what was covered. No ands, ifs, buts, ors, or nors.

We also have freedom to add things as well. Just tonite my class (all doctors)doing Module 1, we were playing catch with a Toypedo, blowing air rings, and break dancing on the bottom. When we do Module 4, I add a drill for fun, if it's a small class. While we are snorkeling I ask How many times can you flood and clear your mask on one breath? Not in standards but it gives them an idea of breath control and just how much air their lungs do hold and how to ration it. When we do hovering, we try to see who can hover in the wierdest position. One gal actually was able to recline on her back! The combo of what we add by being ourselves, and the standards makes a comfortable, safe diver.

The PADI system, from an educators standpoint, has excellent support in the form of textbooks and videos, as well as indepth teaching outlines. Can we add? Heck yeah. My DM class I had a personal injury attorney teach the Risk Management lecture. People were RIVETED!

Which brings me to another reason the PADI system is a quality program. Defensibility. I've seen some scary things in my almost 30 years as a diver, and 22 as an instructor. Station breathing with no mask, or fins. How can you defend that if a student embolizes?

Now, to address "dumbing down" SCUBA. Let's get off our horse here. SCUBA is not rocket science. You do not need to know Boyle's Law as an Open Water diver, you just need to know the effects of it. You do not need to know Henry's Law, just so you know how to use dive tables. If I remember correctly from my History of the Y program lecture, the original Y class was close to 100 hours long. With the equipment we have today, we don't need that much time. PLus, with travel being the cost it is today, where do many people dive? Warm, calm salt water. In those areas where other conditions prevail, the instructors cover those skills necessary. Jiminy Christmas, it helps them to do that as well. When I learned to dive we did not have pressure guages. We used J valves for crying out loud! When I got certified as a sophomore in colleege and bought my first set of gear for $195 at The Aquatic Center in Newport Beach, my dad made me buy a Sea-Vu, and I was the laughingstock of my club. Things have changed, we gotta join the 90's here.

The last thing PADI does and does well is address that Open Water is not the be all and end all. Living in Indy now, the reference I make is a drivers license. Just because my 17 year old son has one does not mean he is ready for the F1 race this month. He needs more skills and experience as do all new divers.

Now, as far as instructors becoming instructors too early, that has been a problem as long as I have known. In 1980 I helped a Y institute, and a husband-wife couple started their instructors institute in January after getting certified in June of the year before. Their dives were almost all training dives. It is still a problem today. Realistically, who is to say my 100 quarry dives are less important than your 100 shore dives off Laguna Beach if I do my teaching in a quarry?

Blaming PADI for being a for profit organization is short sighted. Let's face it, without a critical mass of divers there are no manufacturers making gear. No gear; no dive shops; no dive shops, much less training. No other organization does as well at supporting the retailer. Then, due to the money they receive they have created first rate materials using the latest technology, the latest gear and current presentation techniques. They have adapted their courses for todays diving enthusiast and wannabe. They did the research and found who was taking classes; what their dempgraphics are; and how to get them in class. Is that wrong?

Lastly, kids in diving. I come on both sides of this. I was teaching before 1986 when there was no minimum age. Also before then, DAN was either non-existent or a neophyte. Little research had been done so they decided to make minimum 12. Now they feel they can have a minimum at 10. Hmm. True it is not rocket science, but the most important skill in SCUBA is nothing we teach. It's the ability to be calm under stress. That's something life teaches, not a SCUBA class. By 10 have they had that? Hmmm. In the old days I did teach a couple 10 year olds. They dove with their Mom and Dad, an eye doctor and a nurse. The kids did well. How much was rote, and how much was learned? Hmm. However, my kids learned at 12. They have excellent skills in the water. They drive me nuts with etiquette issues and planning issues, but they are teenagers, they do that around the house too. But, in defense of PADI, they say you do NOT have to teach the kids. Some people should not teach kids, for both of their sakes. However, I do question the emphasis on this. Is the industry hurting so bad we need to do this, or is this a trend the industry sees that this poor PE major cannot?

It comes down to the instructor. A good one is a good one, no matter what organization they are with. A poor one is poor, no matter what organization they are with. I've seen good and bad in all orgs. There are some PADI instructors I will not work with again, as there are some Y and Naui instriuctors I would LOVE to work with. The instructor supercedes the organization.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom