Panicked diver not exhaling during ascent?
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okay I have done some checking and the technique of "touching" someone in the solarplexis or stomach is infact something that is taught. It is not in the PADi dive manual as such, but the use of venting the panicking divers mouthpiece whilst in his mouth is.
What is in the manual is reference to the fact they say there is no one way to handle a rescue situation or for that matter a panicking diver. The likely hood of a active panicking diver holding there breath is rare.
I asked the same question on another agencies forum and I received the same answer as mine.
Touching him in the stomach gently to make him take a breath. In both cases he has his reg in and not in an OOA situation.
They also suggested that it would not be written down as most rescue techniques are not, there are so many different types and situations to write them all.
It was also interesting to read about an instructor who did in fact do it to someone and they survived to thank him.
Maybe you guys in the good old US of A are a little to sensative to being sued and think to much before you are willing to take a risk.
In all my years only here has anyone ever told me I would be charged for murder because I touched someone in the stomach to make them breath. unbelievable.
What is in the manual is reference to the fact they say there is no one way to handle a rescue situation or for that matter a panicking diver. The likely hood of a active panicking diver holding there breath is rare.
I asked the same question on another agencies forum and I received the same answer as mine.
Touching him in the stomach gently to make him take a breath. In both cases he has his reg in and not in an OOA situation.
They also suggested that it would not be written down as most rescue techniques are not, there are so many different types and situations to write them all.
It was also interesting to read about an instructor who did in fact do it to someone and they survived to thank him.
Maybe you guys in the good old US of A are a little to sensative to being sued and think to much before you are willing to take a risk.
In all my years only here has anyone ever told me I would be charged for murder because I touched someone in the stomach to make them breath. unbelievable.
covediver
Contributor
Back in the 1980s, Al Pierce wrote a book for the Royal Lifesaving Society of Canada, entitled Scuba Life Saving. While some of the techniques illustrated in the book are a bit dated, he does have a lengthy discussion on the panicky victim. On page 117, he writes "in cases if extreme fear, victims cannot be successfully forced to exhale. Do not punch him in the chest. This may cause with the air embolism you are trying to avoid, or other problems."
I think his advice is generally pretty good throughout the book. So, I will leave it at that.
I think his advice is generally pretty good throughout the book. So, I will leave it at that.
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Who teaches this? Apparenly PADI doesn't, and it's nothing I've learned in any SSI class.
If your "touch" makes someone exhale, it's a lot more than a touch.
If you stopped what could have been a safe ascent and they're injured or killed, any country that has a working legal system would be looking at you very closely.
Terry
bleeb
Contributor
I'm not trying to single anyone out and the particular comment I quoted may not actually be talking specifically about this, but several people have either intentionally or unintentionally implied that making someone exhale involuntarily is dangerous because there's a chance they might inhale afterwards. The original question was based on the premise that the breath hold ascent, triggered by panic, was highly likely to embolise, possibly fatally. Does anyone have any idea how likely is likely and how many of those are fatal? Obviously not data anyone collects by experimenting on humans, but maybe something can be inferred by statistical analysis of accident reports. (Or by exploding goats.
) How do these chances compare to a witnessed drowning with rescuers at hand?
That's the key point. Many have questioned whether this or this or that is taught, but what is taught is the need to improvise, to do something. In hindsight, it may be the wrong thing to have done.
DaleC
Contributor
Marinediva, if you didn't use any of those terms don't take on responsability for them.
The OP talks about a bolting diver. Unless you are watching the situation unfold how do you know why he/she is bolting? Are they scared, mask filled with water or are they dying of suffocation? As I stated before, I don't think a punch to the gut is the way to find out.
Is punching a suffocating diver murder? I guess it depends on your lawyer. If someone did it to me I'd feel quite justified in gouging their eyes out on the way up/past.
The OP talks about a bolting diver. Unless you are watching the situation unfold how do you know why he/she is bolting? Are they scared, mask filled with water or are they dying of suffocation? As I stated before, I don't think a punch to the gut is the way to find out.
Is punching a suffocating diver murder? I guess it depends on your lawyer. If someone did it to me I'd feel quite justified in gouging their eyes out on the way up/past.
DaleC
Contributor
I've never worried about being sued myself (not that kind of guy) but the logic is pretty much straight forward to me.
Good samaritan laws protect people in most situations where they try to render aid, in good faith, and to the level of their training whether the victim survives or not. Basically, if you act as a reasonable person would, you're safe. The question is "Is punching/kneeing someone in the gut/chest something you are trained to do or reasonable" under the circumstances.
There are two conflicting mechanisms of injury at play in a bolting diver (when the origin of the panic is unknown). Drowning and DCI. Of the two, which is more likely to be immediately fatal - drowning. What remedy is offered - strike to the gut/chest with the intention to force the diver to exhale. Enhancing the chance of an immediately fatal drowning to prevent a less immediate DCI is not acting in good faith, reasonable nor is it acting to the level of ones training because no one trains divers to do this.
Your best defense would be that someone on scubaboard told you to - good luck with that.
I can't remember if it was the Buddha or Hypocrates who said "Whenever possible help others, but if you cannot help, do no harm."
Humm... maybe it was both.
Good samaritan laws protect people in most situations where they try to render aid, in good faith, and to the level of their training whether the victim survives or not. Basically, if you act as a reasonable person would, you're safe. The question is "Is punching/kneeing someone in the gut/chest something you are trained to do or reasonable" under the circumstances.
There are two conflicting mechanisms of injury at play in a bolting diver (when the origin of the panic is unknown). Drowning and DCI. Of the two, which is more likely to be immediately fatal - drowning. What remedy is offered - strike to the gut/chest with the intention to force the diver to exhale. Enhancing the chance of an immediately fatal drowning to prevent a less immediate DCI is not acting in good faith, reasonable nor is it acting to the level of ones training because no one trains divers to do this.
Your best defense would be that someone on scubaboard told you to - good luck with that.
I can't remember if it was the Buddha or Hypocrates who said "Whenever possible help others, but if you cannot help, do no harm."
Humm... maybe it was both.
After consideration I will agree to disagree.
This seems to remain an issue that follows two different schools of thought.
I will adhere to my training and pray that in times of crisis I will attend
to the situation at hand methodically. Breaking down problems and working through
prioritised solutions is something that I have been trained for as well as demonstrate regularly as both a chef and a diving instructor.
I do not agree that this is not taught by any dive school. It is obvious it is being taught by many instructors. Who are you to claim they are wrong. Years ago we didn't use BCD's or have occy's in our equipment, times change improvements are made, CPR and other ascpects of first aid are great examples of different standards world wide and different schools of thought in any given situation.
This seems to remain an issue that follows two different schools of thought.
I will adhere to my training and pray that in times of crisis I will attend
to the situation at hand methodically. Breaking down problems and working through
prioritised solutions is something that I have been trained for as well as demonstrate regularly as both a chef and a diving instructor.
I do not agree that this is not taught by any dive school. It is obvious it is being taught by many instructors. Who are you to claim they are wrong. Years ago we didn't use BCD's or have occy's in our equipment, times change improvements are made, CPR and other ascpects of first aid are great examples of different standards world wide and different schools of thought in any given situation.
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