Petrel vs. ????

[poomero]

Valid point. I will change the topic to that.

 

[stuartv]

The 300 is a nice computer, but it's expensive, don't like the CR2 batteries since they don't match up to anything else and are comparatively expensive. Not the end of the world, it's just expensive for what it is. The compass is really a joke because of how much battery it uses and how little real world application it has, the slate video I posted above is far more useful and much cheaper.

...

You mentioned the TX-1, the TX-1 is the DG03 replacement, but to get the $500 price you quoted, you have to trade in a computer, still doesn't have the USB cable, and is twice the money of DG03, so not a good value, when for another $100 you can get the xDeep with Nitrox and a much better screen, or for the same price you can get the Q which is just a better computer overall. You lose AI with both, but the point is you really don't need it, and the DG03 with AI is only $500 right now, so why would you spend a few hundred more to upgrade to the TX1? Just doesn't compute

I see the batteries for the 300 available online for $2.99 each? That's not cheap, but even if you change them twice (or even 4 times) per year, that's pretty negligible, I think.

Sincere question: For people who are doing Rec diving, with no aspirations of Tech, how much would you expect them to use a compass? If need be, I'll be more specific and ask specifically about people who pretty much just dive on vacation to places like the Caribbean, etc.. I have no experience, but I kind of have an expectation that when I'm doing dives like that I will rarely use a compass, and when I do it will generally only be for a few seconds to get a general heading and then put it away. Not swimming along looking at it constantly, like I did for the UW Nav part of my OW class.

The things that really appeal to me about the 300 are the nice-looking display, the compact size (compared to the Petrel), and the everything-in-one aspect (compass and AI built in). Would I spend the extra money for it over a Petrel? I don't know - yet.


Re: The TX-1.

To elaborate on what I posted earlier: I talked to a popular online vendor. They don't require you to send in your old computer to get the $500 price. They said they consider it "the honor system." I reckon it's up to the buyer to decide if buying it makes them feel obligated to destroy an old computer. They also said that $500 gets you the computer, the bungee mount, and the download cable (plus a carrying case). So, like I said earlier, it's only $130 (less, if DGX charges shipping) more than the DG03 (with the same accessories) and you're getting a current model, with (I think?) a nicer display and more capabilities, versus a discontinued DC that was only even ever available through one specific retailer.

In the end, I'm not suggesting that the OP should buy a TX-1. To me, it doesn't sound like the TX-1 OR the DG03 are the best fit for his requirements. I'm just saying that if he DID think the DG03 might be what he wants, then he might ought to consider the TX-1 for an extra $130'ish.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2014 at 01:24 PM ----------

ps. This place is my LDS. They have been selling the Aeris Epic WITH wireless AI transmitter and USB cable for $385. The web page says they are currently Out of Stock. I don't know if they'll be getting more or not. I do plan to ask them when I go to my Nitrox class tomorrow night. If they are going to have more, then this might be another option for the OP.

Aeris Epic Complete

 

[victorzamora]

First of all, let me say that I have never stated or implied that you're an "ignorant noob." Secondly, not being a certified diver can, in fact, put you less "in-the-know" than divers that have hundreds and/or thousands of dives in varied environments and with various gear types.

Read your list of downsides for the DG03 then tell us again how it is that you expect that he would be happy forever?? Maybe re-read the first quote in this post, where the OP says that it's not about the money.

I saw that, and that's why my post stated things solely about the Petrel because that's what he asked about. Money/practicality was mentioned, and the OP mentioned not using the Petrel to its fullest extent. Hence, the DG03 came up.

Then to say that all those other computers are "just not worth the money"... Where is any remotely objective assessment to support that statement? The OP already said it's not about the money. So, are you saying that the (for example) Aeris A300CS OLED is not nicer than the DG03?

As you've told me before, I'm an ignorant newb and know nothing. But, when I look at those two, the screen on the A300CS sure does LOOK like it would be a lot nicer to use than the DG03. If you agree, then who are you to tell the OP that that nicer screen is not worth the extra money to him?

The screen is brighter and more colorful, sure. And it's a "nicer" technology screen than the DG03. However, the font is small and fairly unreadable. And the "screen" being worth the extra money wasn't my point, it was the lack of reliability and performance that made the computer generally not worth twice the price of the Petrel.

The nicer screen is a commonly cited reason to spend the extra money for a Petrel... And the A300CS would give the OP the option for wireless AI, if he decides he wants that. You may not put any value on that, but then you often give a strong impression that your values on computers are significantly biased by what is good for Tech diving, and the OP has made it clear that he has NO plans for Tech diving. So, for HIM, wireless AI MAY be of value. He may want it and it's up to HIM to decide whether it's worth the money for the transmitter.

Wireless AI has nothing to do with tech diving. Tech divers are typically less positive towards it, but only because tech divers are more concerned with reliability, performance, and knowledge. Most AI-fans accept the lack of reliability and simplicity and tout it as "easier." Tech divers do not view extra failure points as "easier" and realize that the computer's algorithm for "total air time remaining" is woefully inaccurate for any real-world scenarios and is not only wasted screen real-estate but actually dangerously underinformed.

The Hollis TX-1 also seems like it would be an option. $750 with wireless AI, bungee mount, and the USB download cable. $500 without the wireless AI transmitter. That puts it at only $130 more than a DG03, with the same accessories. And it has more Tech capabilities than the DG03 (which you have emphasized as having value). And it's relatively new and supported going forward. Plus, from my ignorant newb perspective, it LOOKS like the display on it is nicer than the DG03 display, and it has two buttons for controls, so I have a suspicion that it might be a little easier to navigate the settings.

Firstly, I wouldn't advocate getting all of the accessories for the DG03. They don't work very well, they're overpriced, and they put the total computer cost in a different category. Secondly, as tbone mentioned, that TX1 price is with a trade-in computer. Also, I never emphasized the DG03's "tech capabilities" of being of any value to anybody. What makes the DG03 valuable to me is the reliability, cost, and features-set. Features include 3 gas mixes (more than any rec diver should ever need), a proper algorithm (based upon actual math and not just arbitrarily penalizing you for things), backlight, and battery life. "Tech capabilities" are not something I value in that computer, but the Gauge Mode is something I find very clever if a diver wants to progress towards tech in a slower route or without computers (think GUE). The screen on the TX1 is not any better than the DG03.

You ended with saying that those other computers are "not worth the trade-offs." But, you didn't actually say what the tradeoffs are. Leave Wireless AI aside, since the option for that does not have to be purchased or used. What is the trade off in using, say, an A300CS compared to a Petrel, for Recreational diving only?

The trade-offs are ease of reading the screen, information layout, reliability, support, ease of sync to desktop software, general gas tissue tracking, and price. I know price isn't an object to the OP, but I can't remove that as a factor. I'd much rather have a Petrel and cash than the Aeris. The difference is almost enough for another Petrel, or a nice set of tanks, or a BPW, or a backup wetsuit for my diving.

It may cost more than a Petrel? About double, yeah. Petrel has better customer support? But does that mean the A300CS has crappy customer support? Aeris support is mediocre at best, and the computer requires a lot more support. Is the A300CS unreliable? Yes. It has had nothing but failures since launch. Is a simple algorithm (on the A300CS) really a downside? Not "simple" algorithm. It's not a full algorithm. It's okay, just not NEARLY as good as a full one. The A300CS is actually running a similar algo (well, one of them) to the DG03 which is fine in my book.....just not as good. The other one is simply not as good. Should a Rec diver with no Tech training even have the option to set their own Gradient Factors? The "Rec Mode" on the Petrel allows setting of "conservatism" levels and not full GF settings. But yeah, I think any rec diver should be allowed to set GFs if they're inclined to do so. My wife is fully capable of setting her own GFs and comprehends Buhlmann and GF factors and gets the difference between Buhlmann and VPM....does she not deserve the ability to choose just because she doesn't have a fancy "Tech Diver" card? Is the A300CS OLED screen actually a tradeoff? Yes, it is. It sure looks nice. It's a decent tech, but the display layout and size leave a LOT to be desired. Handling it in person leaves me VERY unimpressed. And the size of the A300CS sure does look like a plus to it versus the Petrel. The A300CS doesn't use regular AA batteries? Okay, but for a Rec-only diver who generally probably should take the gear in to be serviced annually, is it a big deal to tell them they need to have the battery replaced then? Batteries have been failing every dozen dives. It's not unheard of to do many more than that over the course of a week. It uses a regular CR2 battery, which can be purchased at Walmart and they aren't expensive. Much harder to find than AA, and not all dive destinations have a Walmart. And the A300CS has a digital 3-axis compass. Sure, it might not be as accurate as a standalone compass. And it might require him to switch his screen away from other important info. But, for the OP and Rec only diving, how often is he really going to use his compass for any serious navigating? That's a great point....it removes useful information to display inaccurate compass information that a $20 analog compass could handily outperform? Not worth it to me! This PDC could allow a diver to dive with no console at all. All instruments in one place on his wrist. And only 2 hoses coming off his 1st stage (if he uses a hybrid octo). And if he's a warm water, vacation resort type diver, with no intentions of ever going Tech, what is wrong with that? Do you not like knowing how much gas you have left? I sure do, even on 20ft reef dives. The AI transmitter fails too often to be trusted alone. As for hybrid octos, those are awful....but a discussion for another thread.

Or, if the OP doesn't care about wireless AI, then what about the Aeris Manta? $200. Nitrox capable. Gauge mode. The display looks (to my ignorant eye) nicer than the DG03. Optional download cable kit (and remember the DG03 download cable is $100 extra). And it's less money. Why spend the extra $50 for a DG03? What is the trade-off FOR THE OP who doesn't care about Tech? The Manta is actually my go-to "cheap and little" computer to recommend when people want a small computer and dive infrequently, with the caveat that it's not known for its reliability. It only has the capability to do one gas, and can't handle pure O2. Having used both, I can tell you that the DG03 screen is much better and is MUCH better laid out.

You have made it clear that the Petrel is the right computer for you. Personally, I have no opinion on what is right for the OP. I'm just responding to this to say that it doesn't seem to me like you've actually articulated the facts to support your statements on why the Petrel or the DG03 are the best choices for him and his diving. I have given some examples that, to the inexperienced like me and possibly the OP, SEEM like maybe they would be better choices for the OP (Rec only diving, for whom money is not the issue), and which you haven't (at least to this ignorant newb) really explained why they aren't as good as they seem.

The OP specifically asked why people considered the Petrel to be in a league of its own. I could tell you point-for-point why and how the Petrel is better than any other computer on the market (other than Heinrichs-Weikamp that I have no experience with, but have spectacular reviews but no/little stateside support). I was making blanket statements because it was a broad question.

Here is the point-for-point of the OP:

Why a Petrel vs. Something less expensive? Due to reasons I mentioned in my first post. Mostly? Reliability, ease of use, and customer service. The Petrel doesn't have AI or a compass so why spend all that money.Those features haven't worked well yet and generally lead to failures in the computer. You find a computer that does nitrox for much less than $900. I am asking because I am shopping for new gear.

The above post was the original post but I feel I should ask this instead. ↓So that is what I saw when I responded, I'll know respond to the bottom stuff as it became more specific.


What computer should I avoid for recreational diving.Suunto and Mares computers. They have goofy algorithms that penalize you arbitrarily and have little/no mathematical reason to do so. Repetitive diving can get VERY strenuous with a Suunto/Mares as they'll really limit your bottom time. Plus, reliability isn't a strong point for those. I will never get into tech diving or multi gas or anything deeper than 120 feet. I will start to use Nitorx but that's it. I had the Luna before and liked it but the screen was dim and it was very sensitive with alarms and warnings.Most computers, especially rec-only computers, see warnings and alarms as features. One big draw of the Petrel is that it simply doesn't yell at you. It trusts you to be an adult. I don't use a digital compass but AI would be nice if it works. AI doesn't work with reliability that I find necessary. Maybe in a few years, but they haven't worked well yet. The luna never had a problem at all. What would you suggest I avoid and why. Also please keep in mind I am open to a computer with all the bells and whistles or a computer like a zoop that is super basic and I have to run a SPG and compass. Please give me all your good and bad with what you have had how you ended up with what you have now. I am replacing all my gear and I want to get as much real world feed back as I can.

Having said all of that, I'd pick two routes as I mentioned before DG03 if you want basic/cheap and it'll do anything you ask of it. It does beep, but rarely, and it won't lock you out. Shutting it up requires one button push. It beeps ONCE when you enter deco, and gives you a "In Deco" screen...and it beeps when your PO2 gets too high, and it beeps when you ascend too quickly. It's not bad, though.

The other route I'd go is the Petrel. Due to its reliability, dependability, performance, options, screen and customer support I believe the Petrel to be second-to-none. Whether it's worth the price is really up to you.

 

[Wookie]

I use a compass on almost every dive. It doesn't do for the captain to come up away from the boat.

 

[victorzamora]

was only even ever available through one specific retailer.

The DG03 was never retailer-specific. They were available at any Hollis dealer.

 

[stuartv]

It may cost more than a Petrel? About double, yeah.

Thanks for the response. All good points. But, on this one, don't they both cost $950? Comparing the price of a Petrel to the price of a 300 with the AI TX doesn't seem fair.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2014 at 01:37 PM ----------

The DG03 was never retailer-specific. They were available at any Hollis dealer.

I thought the DG03 was only available through Dive Gear Express. The DGX webpage for the DG03 says:

Manufactured excusively for Dive Gear Express by Hollis,

 

[tbone1004]

The DG03 is at DGX now because they bought a boat load of them because lots of tech divers use them in gauge mode as backup computers, they bought a boat load at cheap prices, had the firmware upgraded, and are basically liquidating. I don't know where you're finding the TX-1 for $500 with the cable, but shame on you if you're taking that price without the computer trade in based on the honor system. If that is your mentality now, you won't last long in the diving world. It is very very small and small things like that echo loud and clear.

Another potential is the Seabear H3. It's a bit more expensive than the Petrel by about $100, and that one might actually be able to compete in this battle. Unfortunately it is a very small company out of Austria, and it hasn't actually been released yet. APD trusts them enough to be the HUD on the new Vision CCR so they are quite good and they are built like tanks, the T1 was built for the military and it will be interesting to see how the H3 stacks up. It looks sexy as hell though
H3

To Stuart.
regarding the compass, you said it yourself, you likely are pulling a compass out for general waypoints, not full out navigation, and if you are doing full out navigation, having the compass on a slate is a helluva lot more comfortable for long navs than having to keep your forearm perfectly perpendicular to your body and also means you are stuck looking mostly down instead of ahead of you. The slate video I linked before is perfect for most diving conditions because you can write down all pertinent info on it, draw a basic map of where you are diving so you don't get lost, i.e. on a wreck, draw the basic outline, mark where the anchor is, and orient it properly, and you'll likely never get lost, same with shore diving. Good thing to have, especially since you can communicate with it. Great tool and cheap. I'd be really grumpy if I had to nav off of something on my forearm for any distance. It's nice to have, it's cheap for the companies to put in if they want to, but it's not a selling feature I'd ever plan on using or justifying one computer or another because it has one or doesn't. The Seabear has one because it can actually tether to a GPS buoy on the surface for the military guys and is also designed for underwater combat swimmers that are parachuting to their landing zone, so integrating it in for that makes sense. For what normal people do, it's one of those "nice to have but will probably never use it" type things.
The A300 CS is about $100 more than the list price of a Petrel, about 1.5x when you add AI. It gains you nothing other than the ability to spend about $400-$500 when you decide to go AI, and with the price of a DG03 plus transmitter, if you really care that much about wireless AI, it's about a wash. Wireless AI is just a really expensive solution to a nonexistent problem....

 

[bradells]

Sincere question: For people who are doing Rec diving, with no aspirations of Tech, how much would you expect them to use a compass? If need be, I'll be more specific and ask specifically about people who pretty much just dive on vacation to places like the Caribbean, etc.. I have no experience, but I kind of have an expectation that when I'm doing dives like that I will rarely use a compass, and when I do it will generally only be for a few seconds to get a general heading and then put it away. Not swimming along looking at it constantly, like I did for the UW Nav part of my OW class.

Every dive I look at my compass at least twice. It's part of being aware of while/where you are diving.


Do you need to look at it all the time on a dive? Rarely, but then it's a dive (or portion of) where navigation is key to it's goal (say travelling a distance on a bearing to a wreck).

Even shallow dives, I check it while swimming away from the mooring (and any time I change direction) and reference those on the way back with any other geographic data I observed.

To me it doesn't matter if it's a 100+ft viz in the Caribbean drift dive on a big wall with an awesome captain, or a shallow shore dive in 1ft of viz. I want to know at the very least, which way is 'home' (be it shore/anchor line/remote pile of rocks) and which way I'm headed.

Others are sometimes not inclined, and have no idea where they're pointed, and are OK with it, or don't realize this as all the diving they've known is of the 'follow the diver infront' diving.


BRad

 

[stuartv]

It's a decent tech, but the display layout and size leave a LOT to be desired

Can you be more specific about this? I have looked at pictures of the 300 display (and the Petrel) and the info on the 300 display all seems very easy to read and intuitive to me. I like all the colors. The color-coded bar graphs for N2 saturation and for Ascent Rate seem nice and easy to read at a glance - particularly versus the Petrel where you have to focus on it and read a number (the NDL) to have an idea of what your N2 loading is (and then, it's by inference).

I think any rec diver should be allowed to set GFs if they're inclined to do so. My wife is fully capable of setting her own GFs and comprehends Buhlmann and GF factors and gets the difference between Buhlmann and VPM....does she not deserve the ability to choose just because she doesn't have a fancy "Tech Diver" card

This strikes me as very similar to saying "my wife is fully capable of checking Nitrox percentage and calculating MOD and setting her PDC for Nitrox. Does she not deserve the ability to dive Nitrox because she doesn't have a Nitrox card?" With all the emphasis around this board on getting the right education, with frequent implication that if you have not taken an official class from a certified instructor, then you don't have sufficient education, I'm surprised to see anyone here promoting the concept of a diver making up their own ascent profiles without official training in doing such.

I haven't taken my Nitrox class yet. But, I have read the book and taken college Chemistry. Should I save the money and just let my Nitrox certified buddy get both our fills for me? I know how to set my computer to the FO2 that the tank is labeled.

That's a great point....it removes useful information to display inaccurate compass information that a $20 analog compass could handily outperform?

I'm not sure I understand. My point was that he might rarely use the compass and, on the 300, it doesn't take up any room on the display if you're not using it, so does it really matter that it's not as accurate or that it burns a lot of battery when you do use it?

Batteries have been failing every dozen dives. It's not unheard of to do many more than that over the course of a week.

That is definitely handy to know. And that's a common problem across many of the 300s? Or your experience is just with 1 or 2 of them or what? They claim 40 - 60 hours of dive operation per battery. That seems like the kind of thing they would fix with a firmware update. No?

The AI transmitter fails too often to be trusted alone.

And this is your direct experience either from using an A300CS yourself or actually diving with someone using one? Or is this a commentary on wireless AI in general? I ask because I have spent a lot (too much!) time reading about wireless AI, and talked to as many dive shop employees as I could (at multiple shops) and based on all the anecdotal evidence regarding wireless AI in general, it seems like the consensus is that they used to be problematic but nowadays they are solid. Loss of reception, when it happens, is generally for only a few seconds at most and almost never a case of the connection just dying irrecoverably (unless the battery dies, which is a maintenance issue and shouldn't happen - particularly since all the wireless AI DCs I have looked at will give you a low battery warning for the transmitter as well as the PDC itself).

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I personally never put my trust in a guide. At any time a safe, competent diver should be able to thumb the dive and head back to the boat or shore. Even those who thought they were not good at navigation surprised themselves with a little competent instruction and practice. I had one student I had to make use the compass instead of relying on her hubby decide it wasn't that bad and got damn good at it. I really don't want to dive with someone who is completely ok with leaving all the navigation to someone they really don't know. It's shows a lack of dedication and a degree of blind trust. Trust that can get you hurt or worse.