BabyDuck
Contributor
your head *will* touch in a single, but it shouldn't jam in your skull. i hope you can get it sorted, but i didn't want you to think that it won't touch, because it does.
Plate positioning on back
- Thread starter 4sak3n
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Blacthorn
Contributor
this may be a stupid suggestion since I haven't looked at different tanks like this specificly, but would a longer thiner tank be able to be positioned slightly lower? the other idea, would be to get a different 1st stage, something like a SP Mk25/Atomic etc, that wouldn't stick out as far from the valve. With your pic you certianly have the tank as low as you could put it. Aside from doing what Tobin suggests, cinching up the waist and crotch strap, while lossening the shoulder till it rides low then tightening the shoulders, I am not sure what you could do.
Well you could flip the tank around and have it valve downward.
good luck, and please let us know if anything works
Well you could flip the tank around and have it valve downward.
good luck, and please let us know if anything works
OP
Do you guys think that crossing the straps would help at all with this?
I am not a muscular guy nor am I particularly small however, as noted in this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/203408-crossing-straps-3.html by TSandM, it does lower the plate on your back somewhat. Others also mentioned that they had a harder time reaching their valves which would imply that their tanks were lower.
It would bring up the problem of not being able to reach my valves but I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
It does mean though that I would have to rethread the harness. Ugh!!!
I am not a muscular guy nor am I particularly small however, as noted in this thread http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/203408-crossing-straps-3.html by TSandM, it does lower the plate on your back somewhat. Others also mentioned that they had a harder time reaching their valves which would imply that their tanks were lower.
It would bring up the problem of not being able to reach my valves but I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
It does mean though that I would have to rethread the harness. Ugh!!!
The valve rig on your tank looks odd. I don't have my glasses so it is hard to tell what you have there exactly. Valves today are somewhat longer than they used to be a few years ago. You would probably have better luck with a tank that was not shapped like a barrel. That netting is not helping. The tank hitting the head is one of those dirty little secrets of the BP/wing world. I had been using the plastic plates with a wing since about 78 but only popped for a metal "tech" plate a few years ago. Immediantly I noticed the same thing, the regulator/valve was hitting me in the head in the most annoying fashion.
I had and still use a Hammerhead but also have a Halycon and a Oxy plate now plus a Freedom Plate and two plates I built myself as protoypes. Early on I thought the plate was to long, I am 5-11 and I see your 6-2 so your not a short fellow are you so a standard plate ought to work for you.
1. I lengthened the shoulder straps and shortened the crotch strap. The plate quickly finds the notch in the lower back beyond which it does not want to set any lower especially when in the water and horizontal. When you have it to that point there is no point in attempting to drop it any further, that is where it sits on YOU naturally. Set your harness to hold it there.
2. Yeah, yeah, STAs are no good, well read on dear polly wog cuz I think you need one. Don't let the bad old toad frog tell ye different, you need one, it will help you out. I like the Diverite stainless STA because it is fairly thin and does not weigh much as a result. The thin build helps me cut it. I take the STA and set it on the plate and usually line it up with the bottom edge of the plate and then look and see where the holes (to mount STA to plate) fall. If this alignment is close then I go with it but if the provided holes mount the STA high then I redrill the holes in either the STA (preferrably) or the plate (lastly)and hopefully neither.
3. Now that we have the STA positioned as low as practical on the plate we are off to a good start on our adventure to end your head ache. Yeee haaaaaa, not woooooo hoooooo. Now take your plate and your mounted STA (get that silly airbag off there for the time being to help us out here bud) and set it up to your tank. Mount the lower camband through the lower STA slot please. Did I tell you to loose the silly netting, please get rid of that, it hurts my eyes and it will mess us up here. Mark on your new STA where the upper camband needs to be to remain safely below the top edge (shoulder) of the tank. Remove your ugly barrel shaped tank and set it aside for the moment and let's take a gander at what you have. I bet the new marks are well below the provided slots in the STA and probably well below those in the plate. Have you ever noticed that lot's of people, about 85% of the diving world only use one camband, well never you mind them, obviously the world is not knowing what they are doing cuz you all is tech divers and you know better and ya got's two of everything. Soooo. (Using one would end your problem though wouldn't it?)
4. We gonna do one of two things. Measure out and using a high speed wheel (pneumatic) cut a new set of slots, drill the end points and cut between and fisnish with a file and then a Scotchbrite wheel. Or the poor man solution for the weenies who have no tools is to simply loop the upper camband under the STA--YEP---that works really good to simply loop in under and now you can slide it up and down to fit multiple cylinder styles with no effort, cinch the wing nuts back tight and the upper camband will sit just pretty as you please. Now your tank will sit much lower than before.
BTW, I have now done this over the last, oh, three years or so about a dozen or more times for scaryboard members---FREE. I just don't have time to cut anymore, please buy one of the new copies or cut it yourself or do the "camband under" trick.
6. Now mount your tank and air bag to the plate, put it on and look it over. I bet you can now resize your shoulder straps and maybe even shorten them just a touch. Lets look at that air bag you guys call a wing. I bet it sits to high now compared to your tank, yep, if it does set it down to the lower mounting holes if possible, depends on wing and plate but most have three sets of holes to move the wing up and down, put the wing down--ie--the plate a high on the wing as you can for now.
Now sombody is going to probably tell you I am wrong, maybe, but I am not the one with my tank hitting my head anymore am I! I also have no vested interests in defending any brand. I mix, match, modify to suit and sometimes if need be build my own better in every way. Please feel free to use, copy or mutilate the "Nemrod Mod" as you see fit. There are several folks out there now who have done so before the gurus accepted there was a problem (if they have yet done so) and they, like me, no longer have a dented head.
There is also a singles plate called the Freedom Plate, view that thread please, his newest design uses a rail type mount that should allow the tanks to mount low or high as required.
Hope this helps you, your plate, your air bag and fat tank to live happily ever after together.
N
I had and still use a Hammerhead but also have a Halycon and a Oxy plate now plus a Freedom Plate and two plates I built myself as protoypes. Early on I thought the plate was to long, I am 5-11 and I see your 6-2 so your not a short fellow are you so a standard plate ought to work for you.
1. I lengthened the shoulder straps and shortened the crotch strap. The plate quickly finds the notch in the lower back beyond which it does not want to set any lower especially when in the water and horizontal. When you have it to that point there is no point in attempting to drop it any further, that is where it sits on YOU naturally. Set your harness to hold it there.
2. Yeah, yeah, STAs are no good, well read on dear polly wog cuz I think you need one. Don't let the bad old toad frog tell ye different, you need one, it will help you out. I like the Diverite stainless STA because it is fairly thin and does not weigh much as a result. The thin build helps me cut it. I take the STA and set it on the plate and usually line it up with the bottom edge of the plate and then look and see where the holes (to mount STA to plate) fall. If this alignment is close then I go with it but if the provided holes mount the STA high then I redrill the holes in either the STA (preferrably) or the plate (lastly)and hopefully neither.
3. Now that we have the STA positioned as low as practical on the plate we are off to a good start on our adventure to end your head ache. Yeee haaaaaa, not woooooo hoooooo. Now take your plate and your mounted STA (get that silly airbag off there for the time being to help us out here bud) and set it up to your tank. Mount the lower camband through the lower STA slot please. Did I tell you to loose the silly netting, please get rid of that, it hurts my eyes and it will mess us up here. Mark on your new STA where the upper camband needs to be to remain safely below the top edge (shoulder) of the tank. Remove your ugly barrel shaped tank and set it aside for the moment and let's take a gander at what you have. I bet the new marks are well below the provided slots in the STA and probably well below those in the plate. Have you ever noticed that lot's of people, about 85% of the diving world only use one camband, well never you mind them, obviously the world is not knowing what they are doing cuz you all is tech divers and you know better and ya got's two of everything. Soooo. (Using one would end your problem though wouldn't it?)
4. We gonna do one of two things. Measure out and using a high speed wheel (pneumatic) cut a new set of slots, drill the end points and cut between and fisnish with a file and then a Scotchbrite wheel. Or the poor man solution for the weenies who have no tools is to simply loop the upper camband under the STA--YEP---that works really good to simply loop in under and now you can slide it up and down to fit multiple cylinder styles with no effort, cinch the wing nuts back tight and the upper camband will sit just pretty as you please. Now your tank will sit much lower than before.
BTW, I have now done this over the last, oh, three years or so about a dozen or more times for scaryboard members---FREE. I just don't have time to cut anymore, please buy one of the new copies or cut it yourself or do the "camband under" trick.
6. Now mount your tank and air bag to the plate, put it on and look it over. I bet you can now resize your shoulder straps and maybe even shorten them just a touch. Lets look at that air bag you guys call a wing. I bet it sits to high now compared to your tank, yep, if it does set it down to the lower mounting holes if possible, depends on wing and plate but most have three sets of holes to move the wing up and down, put the wing down--ie--the plate a high on the wing as you can for now.
Now sombody is going to probably tell you I am wrong, maybe, but I am not the one with my tank hitting my head anymore am I! I also have no vested interests in defending any brand. I mix, match, modify to suit and sometimes if need be build my own better in every way. Please feel free to use, copy or mutilate the "Nemrod Mod" as you see fit. There are several folks out there now who have done so before the gurus accepted there was a problem (if they have yet done so) and they, like me, no longer have a dented head.
There is also a singles plate called the Freedom Plate, view that thread please, his newest design uses a rail type mount that should allow the tanks to mount low or high as required.
Hope this helps you, your plate, your air bag and fat tank to live happily ever after together.
N
BTW, crossed straps will drop it a touch but I have found that most men do not like them crossed, our chests shoulders and necks tend to be larger than those of women and as a result the crossed straps might "saw" on your neck. You will just have to try that one on your own and see if it works for you, I bet you will not like it that way. If I were setting a plate for my wife, yeah, I bet they would need to be crossed to keep the straps up on her shoulders.
Now returning control to you and the regular channels, over and out polly wog, good luck. Yaaaa Hoooooooooo.
Edit: I was out in the shop and found my glasses on the press. I now can see that I betcha 70% of your problem is that funky tank you got there, long neck and valve and holy cow what kinda first stage is that there? There could be combinations of equipment that will just never be perfecto, that may be one of them that will be hard to deal with to a completely satisfactory solution.
N
Now returning control to you and the regular channels, over and out polly wog, good luck. Yaaaa Hoooooooooo.
Edit: I was out in the shop and found my glasses on the press. I now can see that I betcha 70% of your problem is that funky tank you got there, long neck and valve and holy cow what kinda first stage is that there? There could be combinations of equipment that will just never be perfecto, that may be one of them that will be hard to deal with to a completely satisfactory solution.
N
cool_hardware52
Contributor
I agree. It appears to me that the tank has Looooog Neck, and the valve is also quite tall. Hard to tell from 4sak3n's photo, but it looks like the distance from the "crown" of the tank to the tank orifice is about 10 inches. By comparison on a typical Luxfer 80 and thermo valve this distance is about 6.5". On the tallest tank I have, a rather odd Heiser LP 120 this distance is still only about 7 1/2" inches.
The Camband Slots in a DSS plate allow the upper camband to be lower relative to the band bolt holes than the modified STA in your photo. The problem here is not related to tank position. Drop the tank too far and it will be hard to trim out.
There is no need to buy a STA, and no need to start cutting new slots in anything.
Tobin
cool_hardware52
Contributor
4sak3n,
Keep in mind what I've said, and what others have said about head to valve contact.
Secondly, if you can achieve a tank /valve/reg position when upright on land that you find acceptable, you should be able to replicate this position in the water.
Try adjusting the shoulder straps and crotch strap as I have suggested before attempting any other fixes.
If you have access to other tank / valve combo's that too is worth investigating.
Remember there are 1000's of divers using DSS plates and wings who never felt the need to drill holes, cut new slots, buy sta's...............
Tobin
Keep in mind what I've said, and what others have said about head to valve contact.
Secondly, if you can achieve a tank /valve/reg position when upright on land that you find acceptable, you should be able to replicate this position in the water.
Try adjusting the shoulder straps and crotch strap as I have suggested before attempting any other fixes.
If you have access to other tank / valve combo's that too is worth investigating.
Remember there are 1000's of divers using DSS plates and wings who never felt the need to drill holes, cut new slots, buy sta's...............
Tobin
OP
I'll try to use a cylinder with a shorter valve but I think that they all (I use my dive club's tanks, ditto with their regs) have similarly sized ones.
I'm determined to get this licked come hell or high water. Even with the annoyance of the reg I am so much more comfortable in this setup. Maybe if I had access to a pool it would be easier because I can make adjustments right away instead of having to do it dive-by-dive.
Anyway, thanks for the help so far. I'm sure that I will come right eventually. And I'll get some photos of the relative sizes of the valve and reg for comparison when I get my grubby paws on a camera again.
I'm determined to get this licked come hell or high water. Even with the annoyance of the reg I am so much more comfortable in this setup. Maybe if I had access to a pool it would be easier because I can make adjustments right away instead of having to do it dive-by-dive.
Anyway, thanks for the help so far. I'm sure that I will come right eventually. And I'll get some photos of the relative sizes of the valve and reg for comparison when I get my grubby paws on a camera again.
I will stick with everything I said and remember what I told you, they will tell you I am wrong, but I am not being hit in the head either. Before I did anything further, as I have already said, 70% of your problem appears to be related to that funky tank and all that other "stuff" that I cannot seem to foucs my eyes on. It may be that netting that is hurting my vision.
Just for my curiousity, what tank is that, what is that round thing around the neck, what regulator is that and what is that other "thing" below the regulator. Even with my glasses on I cannot figure that out.
Well, if you don't get it figured out, sorry, out of here because I don't wish to engage in inane arguments into infinity. If you think getting hit in the head is normal--it is not---it results from a problem, in this case most likely related in major to your tank/valve combination but not exclusively but sometimes it is improper set up or even poor design or incorrect application or combinations thereof. Got a fire going, gotta go put it out before I burn out the woods. Adios.
N
Just for my curiousity, what tank is that, what is that round thing around the neck, what regulator is that and what is that other "thing" below the regulator. Even with my glasses on I cannot figure that out.
Well, if you don't get it figured out, sorry, out of here because I don't wish to engage in inane arguments into infinity. If you think getting hit in the head is normal--it is not---it results from a problem, in this case most likely related in major to your tank/valve combination but not exclusively but sometimes it is improper set up or even poor design or incorrect application or combinations thereof. Got a fire going, gotta go put it out before I burn out the woods. Adios.
N
I don't dive a BP/W yet, so I am not qualified to make any suggestions based on my experience with these setups.
I can however base an opinion, and make suggestions following common sense and my basic mechanical abilities hammered into my thick head over the years. (pun intended!)
If this is the only tank/reg combo that is available to you at the moment, then you either live with the problem or modify right?
I can see how trim would be affected by lowering the tank, but the basic complaint of valve gouging skull would seem to be an over riding reason to do so. Can't trim be readjusted following the modification by placing some weight high on the plate?
I like Nemrod's modification. It just wreaks of the DIY ingenuity that I thrive on.
I can however base an opinion, and make suggestions following common sense and my basic mechanical abilities hammered into my thick head over the years. (pun intended!)
If this is the only tank/reg combo that is available to you at the moment, then you either live with the problem or modify right?
I can see how trim would be affected by lowering the tank, but the basic complaint of valve gouging skull would seem to be an over riding reason to do so. Can't trim be readjusted following the modification by placing some weight high on the plate?
I like Nemrod's modification. It just wreaks of the DIY ingenuity that I thrive on.
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