Problems for a Kelp diver on a Caribbean dive,rental gear.

[jimmy71]

I guess I need to review what the law says because I have always wondered. It is also expected that ANY certified diver should be able to manage their own air and nitrogen barring complications. If I am not being paid to lead or guide your dive, what responsibility do I have? I am not a DM, but I remember one telling me that the law or possibly the waiver states that while they are leading the dive, it is your choice and your choice alone if you choose to follow their directions. I believe this was to advert liability.

I will also say that I inform any one I dive with that this is my philosophy and if they are not OK with it, they should not dive with me. I do not want or expect them try to manage my dive, why should they expect that of me? Guess I will do some quick googling to find out if I am crazy wrong.

By this mentality, one could say that his buddy acted incorrectly by not knowing that the OP went into deco,l even if the OP did not realize it.

Jimmy

---------- Post added April 17th, 2012 at 01:16 PM ----------

Just finished reading this Scuba Diving Buddies: Rights, Obligations, and Liabilities by Phyllis G. Coleman :: SSRN <--- you can download the paper from the site for free.

Seems I will have to refuse the liability of an insta buddy and draft up a liability release for the people I commonly dive with....

 

[flots am]

Just finished reading this Scuba Diving Buddies: Rights, Obligations, and Liabilities by Phyllis G. Coleman :: SSRN <--- you can download the paper from the site for free.

Seems I will have to refuse the liability of an insta buddy and draft up a liability release for the people I commonly dive with

It's an interesting paper, thanks for the link!

From my reading, it sounds like if you dive using currently accepted practices, don't do dumb things, and provide the level of care that could be expected from even a moderately competent diver, you should be in pretty good shape.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see any of this as over-reaching or unreasonable. One of the fatalities was caused by surfacing several hundred feet from the dive flag and getting hit by a boat, and the other was caused by refusing to share air with an OOA diver. Neither of these outcomes are surprising.

I couldn't quite figure out what happened in the reference to the quarry diver getting stuck in the mud.

flots.

 

[jimmy71]

I started a link to discuss the separate issue associated with the off topic of buddy liability here. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/sc...7-legal-liability-dive-buddy.html#post6309130

I do not want to thread hijack or get off topic, but I have a feeling the OP will not be coming back to this thread as I imagine he is getting wildly different responses than what he expected..................

 

[Lake Muroc Diver]

WOW!
First of all, the dive trip was almost a year ago. I incorrectly said that I had LOC on the first dive. That was wrong. It was during the end of the 2nd dive, also to 80 or 90 feet with the last 20+ minutes in 30'. I am a little foggy since I do not have the computer to download the profile. It was not capable of downloading to a computer; you have to step through the sample points on that rental computer. I also said that I started safety stop with 500PSI. Should have said that I ended at with 300 PSI on the ladder
I was not trolling for anger or what ever. I was probably just tired when I posted. SORRY.
2nd I corrected the weight problem before dive two. End of the Yo- Yo safety stop. I needed probably 4 lbs. but I used 3 two pound weights. Probably over compensated by 2 pounds. Worked for the rest of the trip.
Third I spent the time after the second dive conferring with my Master diver buddies, trying to figure out why the computer went into LOC. I thought I had done an adequate job holding my depth on the safety stop. SO I had no idea that it recorded a missed safety stop. Not a Deco stop. Time at 100 feet was less than three minutes.
I did not know I had Yo-Yoed until the next morning when we stepped through the dive sample points on this cheap computer.
Fourth -Yes I am a FISH. SCUBA, SURFING, Wake boarding, Water skiing, Spring board diving, Kayaking, canoeing, white water rafting, and I have Labrador retrievers. (Waterdogs!) I actually have > 300 computer logged dives. More back in the day in Hawaii when no one I dived with asked for a cert. (I am 57 years old and dove with a navy may west as buoyancy compensator).
My dive buddies, Master divers, former dive boat owners, and long time dive instructors, were certain that the cheap computer was broken since their dive profiles were far from a Deco requirement.
So my lesson was all about unfamiliar gear, unanticipated changes to my buoyancy, (strange gear). And not figuring out the modes on the computer while in the boat, before the dive.
I dove again 2 days later since there was a tropical storm/ hurricane that scrubbed the Tuesday dive boat. Beyond the DECO requirements, worst case for the dive.
All of my computer logged dives show that I know what I am doing, an occasional short fast ascent rate but that is all. My own computer is an Uwatec. I use 2, three minute countdowns if I exceed 90 feet. Which I rarely do.
I am a high tech person; I work with flight computers in a research setting.
Some people that responded to my post acts like computers don't make mistakes. I am still not sure how the formula in the computer determined that a safety stop at 15' with periodic fluctuations to 25 -12' was a full miss of the stop. It acted like I shot to the surface. I was 6 minutes at that depth block.
I may have been sloppy, but I was not dangerous. ( I was "DECO JIM" for the rest of the trip).
Thanks for the eye opening comments.
It was a mistake posting it.

 

[jimmy71]

asking for advise or telling people about bad things that happen usually end up that way.

I do have a couple questions for you. Do you possible remember what brand computer the rental was?

Never mind the second question. I just reread your first post and realized you state that you reset a timer for an additional three minutes for 6 total as a personal buffer if you go beyond 100.

I full believe computers fail and they are often also set incorrectly. By any chance were you diving nitrox?

Jimmy

 

[Lake Muroc Diver]

I believe it was a SUUNTO Gecko.
The dive shop had many of them and they had not seen a problem like this before.
My fault in many ways. Not convinced the computer was Ok, or that I had found a glitchy one, or that I had found a hole in the program.
I spent the day off the boat by exploring the island, and eating too much BBQ Chicken. Another great day in Paradise.

 

[jimmy71]

Bare with me. I love a good mystery! I know you may not remember but I just wonder.

Where you on nitrox?

Are you saying that the computer started working or the message on the screen went away after approx 24/48 hours? Did you continue to dive this computer?

Was the message LOC or ER on the screen?

Thanks for sharing!

 

[stevensamler]

Since theproblem I faced must have been experienced by other divers I wanted to post sodivers can learn from my problem. I am a SOCAL kelp diver. I wear a 7mm suit and my own gear. I had anexceptional opportunity to dive on one of the best reefs in the world. I won'tmention the island since I do not intend to create any flack for the great divebusiness I used for my week long dive adventure...
I arrived on the island, my dive gear did not. So on day two, I went with mydive buddies to rent a full kit and get close to the famous reefs.
The gear was average, in good condition but not my gear. I had the divingschool BC, cheap computer, integrated weight and a so-so regulator. What I didnot have was the most important. I did not have a 7mm wetsuit.
I asked my dive buddies, both master divers and one time dive instructors,about a good guess for my weight needs. They both guessed, seemed correct to meso, with the full Kit we went on the dive boat.
The first dive was a dream come true. Warm water, perfect reefs with every fishin the book populating the reef, and no current, 100 foot visibility,absolutely perfect we dove to around 100 feet max and an average of 75',following the local dive master. When we arrived at the boat the fun started.
I had 500+ PSI in the bottle and started my double 3 minute safety stop. I wasunsure of the computers safety stop function. My computer has a countdown timerthat I would reset for the second 3 minute whenever I get to 100'. So as I amtoying with the buoyancy, computer buttons and trying to hold my depth, I was yo-yoinging my depth 27'-12'. (I was under weight about 7-10 lbs I found out later) Ihad to swim down to stay underwater. Since my dive buddies were also waitingwith me I felt confidant that although I was unsteady with my depth, I wassafely losing the N2 in my tissue.
After the 6 minute hold was up we took turns at the ladders to get out. On theboat I was trying to check my dive time and saw a "loc"on the display. It cleared and I made the second dive. About 45 minutes intothat dive I got an alarm, and"loc". I surfaced after a 3- 5 minutestop. Got out and skipped the third dive.
When I showed the computer to the dive master, he got serious and stopped mefrom diving until the computer cleared. I lost a full day of dives because thecomputer did not record my YO-YO stop as a safety stop.
The dive shop was worried that I was too risky despite the fact that I wasdiving with 3 other divers with computers that I stayed close to.
The lessons are:

1. Learn the computer before you dive.

2. Get the weight set; a little heavy is better than a little light.

3. If the computer says you blew a safety stop, that is what the dive shopwill use as the rule. (And that is a good rule).

Eventuallythe computer reset, 36 hours after the dives.
If youlose 2 out of 5 days on a dive trip you will be unhappy. If you pop out of thewater too soon due to buoyancy problems, you will be worse than unhappy.

If you knew you had a computer problem after the first dive and you knew your max depth and bottom time , why not switch to tables and continue diving that way the dm wouldn't have considered you a risk.

 

[Hatul]

It is a puzzle. I wonder if the computer had a depth sensor problem and thought you went into deco. Then the stop would be a deco stop and may have thought you violated a deco stop and lock out. But the error message on the Gekko is Er not Loc, so it's a mystery.

 

[g1138]

To the OP, I know Suuntos like to reset their safety stop if you pass back under 20ft. My friend had that problem with a Vyper once.

Also the Gekko is the older model of the Suunto Zoop, not what I'd consider a cheap computer.
Suunto's have a conservative algorithm but I still believe they don't lock out due to a missed safety stop.

Just because you spent 3minutes at 100ft doesn't mean you can't go into overtime at your average depth of around 80 (if I remember your post correctly). Recall you did several deep dives.

For the benefit of the doubt though, it is possible the shop failed to reset the computer's dive profiles from the last user who rented it. Not doing this would mean you were diving on someone else's diver profile; less NDL time for you then.