questionable instruction for kids

[MikeFerrara]

Rick Inman once bubbled...

Sorry, Mike, I wasn't talking about YOU and who YOU teach or how, which is why I didn't mention you(I wonder why you thought I was?), I was talking about the origional post and how my Dad brought me up to think about involving young kids in dangerous activities. That's all...

I thought that because if my comments about tag-alongs.

I certified both my kids when they were 13. My son is now 17 and has made hundreds of dives and only recently has he started making a few dives without me. I know very few others that I would let teach my kids. At that time there wasn't anubody.

My son has only had one other instructor. He took a cavern class from the guy who was my cave instructor. Needless to say I trust him especially on matters of safety. When it comes to skill in the water I've never seen better.

 

[Rick Inman]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

I certified both my kids when they were 13. My son is now 17 and has made hundreds of dives and only recently has he started making a few dives without me. I know very few others that I would let teach my kids. At that time there wasn't anubody.

My son has only had one other instructor. He took a cavern class from the guy who was my cave instructor. Needless to say I trust him especially on matters of safety. When it comes to skill in the water I've never seen better.

Great! I can hear the pride in your son in what you write!

 

[hargettdds]

Its not all about you! This is a discussioin in general terms and quotes help bring up points of more discussion. If you dont want to be quoted then dont speak. It's too bad that you feel you have to prove yourself. You may be a scuba GOD but it does not matter to me or anyone else I'm affraid.

That being said:

I have seen many, many people under water that are flat out dangerous. They have held all levels of certifications and some have also thought highly of themselves. It is those with big chips on their shoulders and "something to prove" that normally are the greatest danger. Not having adequate help with a class is just plain wrong. But having a policy of not allowing someone outside the class to dive with the class might be a liability nightmare.

 

[SpyderTek]

When I was going for my basic OW I signed up with my best friend and my girl friend at the time. (Two seperate people).

For reasons out of her control my Girl friend was unable to make the weekend of the Open Water check out dives with me and my best friend and had to be scheduled for the following weekend.

I went with my best friend as my buddy. Normal class: Instructor and DM over 6 students (3 buddy teams) all went just fine.

The following weekend I inquired at our shop if I paid the entry fees to the quarry and my own hotel stuff etc. if Icould be my GF's buddy since they had just certified me the previous weekend. They had no problemwith this at all.

When we got to the dive site I was a bit surprised to find that the same instructor who checked me out the weekend before was there to do this new class this weekend (he was scheduled to go overseas but couldnt make it). However, our DM from the previous week was not around. In fact, there didnt seem to be ANY DM this time and the class size was up to 8 (not including me).

My instructor took me aside and told me, "You were the best student I've checked out in a long time and besides being your GF's buddy on the dive could you also keep an eye out on everyone else since I'm short a DM?" I of course was flattered and agreed (I realize now this should have set off major alarms and needless to say I moved away from that dive shop for all my further advancements).

Durring the dives I took the position above and behind the instructor where MY DM was the previous weekend and kept an eye down on everyone. I was also asked to take each student off on our own to evaluate their underwater navigation portion.

Besides the obvious that this was an unsafe practice the point here is that not all tag-alongs are trouble and can even be an asset (Even if they SHOULDNT be).

Spyder

 

[MikeFerrara]

Rick Inman once bubbled...


Great! I can hear the pride in your son in what you write!

Of course, my point was that I understand a parants desire to be there and hesitance to trust it to somebody else.

 

[MikeFerrara]

hargettdds once bubbled...
Its not all about you! This is a discussioin in general terms and quotes help bring up points of more discussion. If you dont want to be quoted then dont speak. It's too bad that you feel you have to prove yourself. You may be a scuba GOD but it does not matter to me or anyone else I'm affraid.

That being said:

I have seen many, many people under water that are flat out dangerous. They have held all levels of certifications and some have also thought highly of themselves. It is those with big chips on their shoulders and "something to prove" that normally are the greatest danger. Not having adequate help with a class is just plain wrong. But having a policy of not allowing someone outside the class to dive with the class might be a liability nightmare.

Not having adaquate help for a class is more than wrong and is a point of instructor judgment that may be looked at rather close if something goes wrong.

IMO, any one who works with kids is wise not to be with them alone anyplace.

 

[hargettdds]

Spyder, you cant be serious. You were trouble. those poor students were believing you were something you are not. You took uncertified students off on your own. You are lucky you didnt get someone killed. You dont have to kill someone to be dangerous. Hello!! If someone were to have had a panic attack you would have more than likely had one as well. Not to mention you were not covered by any insurance and would have lost in litigation. I dont care how much insurance the dive shop had, you would have been sued as well and would have still been paying. It is this kind of thinking that I am refering to exactly. I have no idea how long you have been diving but you need some more training if you dont think you WERE NOT a danger to those students.

 

[MikeFerrara]

SpyderTek once bubbled...

Durring the dives I took the position above and behind the instructor where MY DM was the previous weekend and kept an eye down on everyone. I was also asked to take each student off on our own to evaluate their underwater navigation portion.

Besides the obvious that this was an unsafe practice the point here is that not all tag-alongs are trouble and can even be an asset (Even if they SHOULDNT be).

Spyder

I'm sure you realize that this was a gross and blatant violation of standards. An uncertified diver is required to be under the direct supervission of an instructor or DM at all times.

Aside from that you're right not all tag-alongs are trouble. My son has tagged-along with many many of my classes. He isn't a DM and he has never been asked to supervise any one. However he has seen so many students that he has a more educated eye when it comes to spotting problems before they happen than many DM's I've worked with. Still though, the entire group needs to be a managable size for the conditions and the size of the staff and there have been times that I just couldn't take him on a dive with a class no matter how much of an asset he can be.

 

[hargettdds]

I was not aware there were degrees of wrong. I am just not going into detail until I know more. I agree entirely with your post. My 17 y/o son has been diving for two years now. He was trained by a female in a private class one on one. During his checkouts both myself and his mother, also a diver, were on the boat. However we werent involved. Would I let him go to the lake with just her, one on one? No, it is not because I dont trust her because I would trust her with his life. But there are just more safety issues involved and if we were not available I know they would have others there the same as this idiot should have.

O.K. I really have strong feelings but I dont even know if what was stated is true so until then I am not going to get worked up about it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

hargettdds once bubbled...
Spyder, you cant be serious. You were trouble. those poor students were believing you were something you are not. You took uncertified students off on your own. You are lucky you didnt get someone killed. You dont have to kill someone to be dangerous. Hello!! If someone were to have had a panic attack you would have more than likely had one as well. Not to mention you were not covered by any insurance and would have lost in litigation. I dont care how much insurance the dive shop had, you would have been sued as well and would have still been paying. It is this kind of thinking that I am refering to exactly. I have no idea how long you have been diving but you need some more training if you dont think you WERE NOT a danger to those students.

IMO, if something had gone wrong he would have been a victem just as the student. To me, it seems very unfair to put a new diver in a situation they aren't trained to handle. Even worse at that stage of the game the new diver may not even be aware of the scope of what they agreed to do. If something had happened to a student he would have felt rotten even though he was set up to fail.