Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[Colliam7]

However, when one understands that you are a professional instructors - therefore need to make a living - and most CMAS instructors are volunteers, your opinion can be taken with a bit of salt

Can you perhaps explain this statement a bit more? I don't understand how the views of an instructor charging a fee for his/her effort, and an instructor providing the same effort on a voluntary basis, differ in their validity, or how they should be taken,, simply because of the type of compensation (monetary vs personal satisfaction). I am not disagreeing (or agreeing), I just don't understand the comment.

 

[tursiops]

Can you perhaps explain this statement a bit more? I don't understand how the views of an instructor charging a fee for his/her effort, and an instructor providing the same effort on a voluntary basis, differ in their validity, or how they should be taken,, simply because of the type of compensation (monetary vs personal satisfaction). I am not disagreeing (or agreeing), I just don't understand the comment.

He is implying the professional has a vested interest, therefore a conflict of interest, in what he says, whereas the volunteer can be trusted to speak honestly and truthfully. This is rubbish and irritating.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

He is implying the professional has a vested interest, therefore a conflict of interest, in what he says, whereas the volunteer can be trusted to speak honestly and truthfully. This is rubbish and irritating.

I will give you an example - perhaps not directly related to teaching but certainly tangential.
I was talking with an instructor who is looking to sell a side mount rig for a deep discount - it is used but in great condition. I said to him - keep the rig and lend it to your students when you teach a class. I used this method when I took a side mount class. I did not own a rig and did not want to invest in a rig until I was sure that I wanted to dive side mount and I appreciated the instructor letting me "rent" a rig.
So this particular instructor told me he can't do that - because his LDS did not sell that rig. Had it been another rig - he could have hung on to it and let a student try it...
So you tell me - do you think that message (or any message that goes against an LDS policy) will not be subtly transmitted by an instructor?

I do

 

[Colliam7]

So you tell me - do you think that message (or any message that goes against an LDS policy) will not be subtly transmitted by an instructor? I do

Maybe I am just
being dense on this issue. But, what is the 'message' that you think would be subtly transmitted by the instructor you mention? Was the comment to you made in some kind of negative, whining way? Was it something along the line of, "Whine, whine, the @#$ LDS won't let me use non-shop brands in my teaching, so they are forcing me to get rid of a perfectly good rig! Whine, whine.'? If so, that was simply unprofessional behavior on the part of the instructor, and had little to do with his compensation, and more to do with his maturity and professionalism.

I have several rigs / gear items that are not in any brand line that my (current) shop carries. In part, I have many of them because they were in a brand line that my former (now closed) shop carried. I choose not to use them in my teaching of shop classes, simply as a matter of respect for the business interests of the shop. That doesn't mean they are better than, or worse than, the brand lines that my current shop carries. The fact that business is involved doesn't affect my assessment. Frankly, if I thought one of those 'non-shop' lines was somehow conspicuously better / safer / more functional than anything my current shop carries, I would have no reservation about telling student that. But, I also have no problem telling a student that I prefer to use brand lines that my shop carries, that we carry good gear, and I have ready access to those brand lines at very favorable prices, so it makes sense for me to use those brands. That is just being honest and has nothing to do with whether I am a volunteer instructor or a paid instructor. So, I could easily say, that I am not going to hold onto a piece of gear to loan to students, because it is not in my shop's brand line and I can easily obtain an equivalent rig in that brand line at a good price, so there is no reason for me to hold onto to the rig. Fortunately, I don't have such an issue. If I want to use a non-shop brand in teaching, because it happens to fits the needs of the class and student, my shop is supportive of that.

Going back to my original question to freewillow, I would really like to read his explanation of his comment. It could be what tursiops suggests. But, I would like to be sure I understand before I draw any conclusions.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have two comments on the free instruction for volunteers v. paid instructors controversy. Here is the first.

There is a phenomenon that you see played out in many situations. I will give two examples and then identify the phenomenon.

• I read of a recent survey of people involved in a lot of businesses, and they asked what it took for people to become involved with management in the business. The people who were in management talked about hard work, dedication, and training. The people not in management stressed dumb luck, saying that all the other stuff did not matter. They therefore generally eschew hard work, dedication, and training while they wait for dumb luck to project them to the top.
• There has been a recent revolution in scuba instruction, with the traditional approach of teaching skills on the knees slowly giving way to neutrally buoyant and horizontal instruction. The instructors who have made the switch talk about how much faster the students learn and how they become adept at buoyancy and trim very quickly. The ones who refuse to make the switch tell what all the problems are with that approach as to why they refuse to give it a try.

In general, in a conflict of opinion between two situations such as that, people who only know one situation seem to believe that their imaginations are so powerful that they know all about the other situation without having experienced it, and they are thus able to tell all about what is wrong with that other situation.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is my second comment.

I got my first ski lesson from a friend when I was a young adult. I then moved to Colorado, a ski paradise, for graduate school and then the beginning of my adult life. I loved to ski, but in those early years I could not afford both skiing and expensive ski lessons. I relied on tips from friends and from watching other skiers who seemed to know what they were doing. I slowly got better, but I cannot say that I got really good. Then I had enough money to afford some lessons, and, oh my, was my skiing style filled with terrible habits I had picked up while learning from people who did not know what they were doing. I took a lot of lessons over the years, mostly because I had gotten involved with citizen racing, but I was never able to eradicate those bad habits. When a race got a bit hairy and I was in the gates, I would invariably start reverting back to those old bad habits.

Yes, you can learn from friends and people who seem to know what they are doing. Some of those people may indeed be really good, and they may give you excellent advice. You can also learn from professional instructors, and some of them might not be all that good. I know some I would not recommend to anyone. On the other hand, the odds should be greater that a trained instructor will be giving you good counsel than a friend you met along the way. As a quote attributed to a number of people says, "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet."

 

[tursiops]

As a quote attributed to a number of people says, "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet."

More than you wanted to know:
The Race Is Not Always to the Swift, Nor the Battle to the Strong; But That Is the Best Way to Bet | Quote Investigator

 

[Patoux01]

Are you confusing "CMAS dive clubs instructors" with "friends that know how to dive and the interwebz", or is that on purpose?

 

[boulderjohn]

More than you wanted to know:
The Race Is Not Always to the Swift, Nor the Battle to the Strong; But That Is the Best Way to Bet | Quote Investigator

I wanted to get the source right, so I checked that site before posting. That's why I called it "a quote attributed to a number of people."

 

[sunnyboy]

What utter nonsense! "Volunteers" are better than pros because pros are conflicted in their brand loyalty. The prejudice is an insult to decent professional instructors.

I wager you get as much pressure and B.S. from some (note: some, not all) volunteers as from some (again, some, not all) professionals.

In other words, the stated arbitrary division is wrong. Try dividing along the lines of: instructors who shill gear vs. those who don't, or other more realistic choices.