Regulator dilemma

[aquaregia]

I'm considering changing my reg setup to be appropriate to an entry-level tech course (Tech 1, AN/DP, or similar), and I've managed to come up with a number of questions. I'm hoping some of you will have some answers.

As background, I'm currently diving two Mk5/109 and a Mk10/109 for my doubles+stage. The primary problem is that they're all yoke. I can convert the Mk10 to DIN, but the Mk5 is more of a problem. I'm tempted towards replacing them with HOG regs due to the cost efficiency.

I've done all the work on my SP regs in the past, and I'm uninterested in regulators that require me to have someone else work on them for me. I do have a reg tech I trust, and I'm not concerned about the cash, but maintaining my own mechanics is a point of pride for me so I want to keep that ability.

1. Manufacturer support: Many people have told me that I need new regulators due to manufacturer support. Although I know that ScubaPro continues to support the Mk5 and Mk10, they don't support me doing the service myself. I'm concerned that this will eventually lead to me skipping needed service intervals due to trouble getting parts. This alone seems like a good reason to use something else for more serious diving. I very much appreciate HOG's presence on ScubaBoard as well as the availability of service kits. Thoughts?

2. Suitability of Mk5/10/109: Internet whispers indicate that the Mk5 and Mk10 should be perfectly fine for entry-level serious diving (?). Is that true of the 109? I have an Aqualung reg with ventrilo, and it does seem to hammer air into my mouth much faster than the 109s, although the cracking pressure is higher. I've dove the HOG D1 and it didn't seem terribly different to the Mk10/109, but we were above 50' so it wasn't a particularly rigorous test.

3. Screw off faceplate on second stage: Does this actually come up? Is it a cave-only situation? The 109 is screwed shut, so if this is an important feature, it drastically simplifies my options.

4. Availability of additional Mk5/Mk10 DIN 1sts: It seems that there are adequate Mk5s and Mk10s around to allow me to purchase a 1st with the DIN attachment for about the price of the DIN conversion, or half the price of a HOG D1 1st. Alternately, I could buy the D1 1st and use it with my 109s, however given that most of the breathability is in the 2nd stage that seems like it might be the exact wrong approach.

5. HOG D1 vs D2: I hear they're the same price and have the same internals. I've found that the turret on my current regulators very useful on stages, and the 5th port has been very nice for the longhose. Is the turret a substantial enough failure point to forego these conveniences? Is there a different reason to consider the D2 over the D1?

6. Diaphragm regs on stages: I've heard that piston regs tolerate water intrusion better than their diaphragm-based counterparts. However, I've found substantial convenience in using extremely similar regs all around. I could quite easily stick a DIN on the Mk10 and use that for the stage, with HOGs for backgas, but this would mean carrying two very different sets of spare parts. Is the recommendation of diaphragm for backgas and piston for stages worth the heterogeny? Is the heterogeny unavoidable at some point anyway?

At the end of the day, I currently have a set of regulators that I'm very happy with, for my current level of diving. It distresses me to think that something like yoke vs din is going to cost me a grand, however if it's a necessary shift, it's part of the game.

Thanks for reading an appallingly long post.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

1. Support is great on the HOG regs. Before I became a dealer I was aware of this and a key factor in buying them. Even more when deciding to carry the line myself. As for kits that is why once I use the one I have to service my SP Mk16 with R 109 seond it is getting sold and replaced. One shop that I got kits from is no longer on my list pf places to deal with for personal reasons and the other SP shop will not sell kits to divers at all. Want kits for your HOG? Just send me the paypal and they go in the mail.
2. My HOGs have bee below 100 many times and under the ice. Smooth and easy breathing.
3. I have had occaision to use this not on my HOG regs but my Oceanics. Had thick duckweed get in and put extra pressure on the diaphragm. Switch to octo, unscrew ring, pop purge off, clear out the junk, put cover back on and continue the dive. I have fixed other divers regs on site that got the exhaust diapraghm twisted somehow. Easy to do with gloves on even. No screw driver needed.
4. The HOG are sold as indivdual pieces for a reason. Adaptability. Mix and match hoses, 1sts, seconds, etc. I am going to get another HOG 1st to put on one stage bottle with a second that I also like that is not a HOG.
5.I like the D1's. The 5th port is great for the uses you noted and I do not see it as any kind of failure point. It's not like a 90 degree elbow, swivlel, etc. It's engineered to be an asset.
6. I will eventually have diaphragms on all my regs. Back gas, stages, and student regs. I find them easier to maintain and the cost difference is minor. I may go with Edge Epic cold 1sts for stages. They are more compact and I like the hose routing.

If you are seriously considering switching PM me or visit my on line store.

 

[aquaregia]

The Edge Epic seems similar to the D2. Do you have a picture of the routing on a stage?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Sorry no I don't I had one that I set up just to check and then it sold. I should have taken pics. Next time I will. But the way I had it set up was with a guage coming out of the HP port and folded over the top and tied same as my Mk16. Then used the front most LP port. the angle on it is just right to direct the hose down and just a bit out to take any strain off it when it lays against the tank. Not such a big deal on a 30 or 40 but very nice on an al80 bottle. Like it was made for it.

 

[aquaregia]

I think I see. Not like this: DIR-diver.com - Reg config stages/deco ?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not quite. But that will work as well. The DS4 has thesame routing as the Epic. It was difficult to compare them from the angle. The HP ports are in the back. I used the front most Lp port but after seeing that would switch for my 30 or 40 and use my original routing for the 80. The Epic could be called a DS4 clone.

 

[halocline]

Awap has figured out something for the DIN/MK5 dilemma, and maybe he'll post on this thread, or you could send him a PM. As far as suitability for technical diving., the MK10 was a classic tech reg in it's day, it's probably been used on thousands of extremely technical dives. I've never really understood the removable faceplate bit, but one great thing about the 109 is that rubber diaphragm cover that, I would guess, is fairly effective at keeping crud out. Its such a tough, proven 2nd staqe that I can't imagine any knowledgeable tech instructor objecting to it.

Anyhow, if you want removal faceplate, think about a D400 (or 300, or 350). For those you just pull the purge cover right off, and then the nice part is that the diaphragm is still clamped in. One day some super slick tech-diving-wild man is going to be patting himself on the back for disassembling his G250 in a total silt out, only to watch the diaphragm drift away into the silt.

 

[Slamfire]

I have a pair of DINned Mk10 G250 Graphites in my doubles. I've taken them to 200' with no problems whatsoever. They work great. You start feeling a little bit of work of breathing creeping up at depth - just a 1/4 of a turn of the adjustable knob and a bit of an increase in the venturi assist and they'll inflate your lungs. On one dive I took a bottom gas stage with my Brut 1st and Zeagle Rezort 2nd (unbalanced piston), and the difference at depth was night and day. By the time the stage was running low on pressure, I had to manually assist the Brut by pressing the purge button on inhalation to avoid lung fatigue. All my regs are tuned to my taste using the sinkfull of water method.

Vance's book mentioned that diaphragmed 1sts might be a bit more complicated than pistons. I only have pistons. Right now I have two orphaned classic downstream Sherwood 2nds. If I were to buy another 1st stage, I would get another piston. I don't think there's anything wrong with diaphragms and I'm sure that they are easy to service, but pistons is what I am used to and they have worked for me.

I'm find Hog regs very attractive. BTW, did you know Hog has a balance piston 1st?

In regards to Scuba Pro parts, you can get generic seats that'll fit Scuba Pro from Trident. I think that you've seen that the folks in the DYI section have documented Scuba Pro oring equivalents to 2-dash standards. I think Apeks and maybe Hog LP seats will fit G250's. In short, there is more than one way to get around the Scuba Pro choke on accessibility of parts to end users.

I have never encountered a situation where I needed to take of the face plate while diving. And, hell no, you should not spend a grand to just address a DIN vs Yoke issue.

 

[aquaregia]

BTW, did you know Hog has a balance piston 1st?

I thought I heard that HOG wasn't terribly stoked on the performance of their BP1 and were doing a redesign?

 

[aquaregia]

Had thick duckweed get in and put extra pressure on the diaphragm. Switch to octo, unscrew ring, pop purge off, clear out the junk, put cover back on and continue the dive.

So the duckweed got between the faceplate cover and the diaphragm?