Rescue Diver, Thanks to the forum/thoughts and what next?

[Sas]

yes freeflow...how much time do you have considering the worst case at a 15 liter tank and 120 bar (which was the minimum for starting the ascent). Enough to get someone who is close to you, to share air? I think you misunderstood the setup of the whole thing....it was groups of 2 or 3 people: 1xDM (I think everyone was Instructor) and 1 or 2 customer. So my buddy and the DM must be idiots swimming away from me. The buddy also had 2 checkout dives before (on a different day) at 40 meter. Someone crazy is not taken. Swimming away would result in aborting the dive (I guess, I didn't try it).

Yes it was in Croatia.

I think for any reason you got a complete wrong picture of that. It was not that a random buddy and we just jumped in the water and went for a 47 meter deco dive. From estimate 8 people under water 3 were DM or Instructor from the shop.
In my opinion the usual 20 meter "jump in the water and dive without thinking and planing" dives are way more dangerouse.

Ok firstly, groups of three are usually not a good idea unless you regularly dive with the same two people. If both you and your buddy have problems, who will the DM help out? Do they discuss this with you first? I have dived in groups of three before and been left alone at depth because one of the buddy group had a rapid ascent and my other buddy was first to grab him and try to slow down his ascent rate. I did not follow as I lost site of them due to the viz. I have also had one of my buddies in a group of three (an instabuddy both times who was tacked on to our pair) swim off so then I am faced with deciding whether to go after one buddy or stay with the other one. You might get left alone in a circumstance like this.

You said elsewhere on this forum that you often dive with a new buddy each dive, is this not the case? I personally avoid diving with new buddies below 18m as I do not know what they will be like if a problem should occur. You've mentioned that you occasionally dive below 30m, do you do these types of dives with new buddies or regular buddies? I would possibly do a dive like this with a new buddy under certain circumstances but I certainly wouldn't be relying on them to bail me out if something went wrong... The thing I have been trying to get across is not that you shouldn't be diving with new people each dive, or even doing deeper dives, just that you really shouldn't be relying so heavily on the idea that other people will always be around to bail you out.

With freeflows, sometimes people panic when these occur so swimming over to a buddy to ask them to share air or even continuing to breathe out of their freeflowing reg may not be something that occurs to them.

 

[mislav]

In my opinion the usual 20 meter "jump in the water and dive without thinking and planing" dives are way more dangerouse.

I agree with this.

Thing is, no matter how many more "what ifs" you come up with, the most dangerous dives I've seen were the ones where a not too experienced instructor/DM takes 8 or even more beginner divers on a shallow (less than 18m) dive. There's usually zero control over what might go wrong!

No redundancy helps if a diver is trained poorly or not trained at all or is simply a bad diver. For proof of that you might read a current thread on SB about a fatal dive accident in San Diego.

As to what to do next... I would also say that OP would benefit greatly from taking a DM course. Or go for Tech Deep training or DIR training or Deep Air training by PSAI.

Ok firstly, groups of three are usually not a good idea unless you regularly dive with the same two people. If both you and your buddy have problems, who will the DM help out?

What are you talking about here? I guess groups of four are even worse idea then? Do you dive only buddied up with a DM? What happens if both you and DM have problems?

 

[h90]

writing my answers between

Ok firstly, groups of three are usually not a good idea unless you regularly dive with the same two people. If both you and your buddy have problems, who will the DM help out? Do they discuss this with you first? I have dived in groups of three before and been left alone at depth because one of the buddy group had a rapid ascent and my other buddy was first to grab him and try to slow down his ascent rate. I did not follow as I lost site of them due to the viz. I have also had one of my buddies in a group of three (an instabuddy both times who was tacked on to our pair) swim off so then I am faced with deciding whether to go after one buddy or stay with the other one. You might get left alone in a circumstance like this.

Yes I know that problem. It would be better to have 1 DM one customer. In fact that is a big problem I didn't think about before.

You said elsewhere on this forum that you often dive with a new buddy each dive, is this not the case? I personally avoid diving with new buddies below 18m as I do not know what they will be like if a problem should occur. You've mentioned that you occasionally dive below 30m, do you do these types of dives with new buddies or regular buddies?

Always new buddies, but that's the way it is if you are close to a tourist place. Living in Thailand, either you dive just with the DM because no customer (if lucky) or in the worset situation the DM has just total 65 dives made on the same two spots takes 7 people and says "We dive together" no buddies assigned at all. I saw that a couple of times at below 30 meter. I am pretty unhappy with that. Some excellent diver and some not so good one. But you don't know before. I myself just got a second first stage and regulator as one step to be less depending on someone else (but need to figure out if someone has tanks with two valves). Basically always when I am on a diving boat no one ever saw the others before (beside some families, husband and wife diving together). I don't know if there is statistic about accidents in Thailand

I would possibly do a dive like this with a new buddy under certain circumstances but I certainly wouldn't be relying on them to bail me out if something went wrong... The thing I have been trying to get across is not that you shouldn't be diving with new people each dive, or even doing deeper dives, just that you really shouldn't be relying so heavily on the idea that other people will always be around to bail you out.

Yes you are right. That point above: buddy ascents, DM tries to stop, goes up with him. I stay down, of course want to make the deco, but than I have no redundance anymore. That argument is really beating! Just a few dives ago one buddy just ascented :shocked2: quick and without notice, because he need to go to the toilet :mooner:.
If such a guy is your redundance..........

With freeflows, sometimes people panic when these occur so swimming over to a buddy to ask them to share air or even continuing to breathe out of their freeflowing reg may not be something that occurs to them.

Well, I think such people wouldn't shut down the first stage and use the other one.
The next thing I focus will be to use two first stages, just all tanks have just one valve....

 

[Sas]

What are you talking about here? I guess groups of four are even worse idea then? Do you dive only buddied up with a DM? What happens if both you and DM have problems?

I would expect that in groups of four, there would be two pairs, like the standard buddy team so not a worse idea. That is how I have seen group dives take place that have been lead by a DM. Groups of four with people who dive together regularly too can be workable but I would hate to ever do a dive with *three* instabuddies... I know in some places they do group diving, where there aren't buddy pairs. If I was to dive in that kind of situation then I would not in anyway rely on someone else to bail me out. That has been my point all along. People are not 100% reliable, and their reliability goes down if you dive with new divers each time. There is nothing inherently wrong if you do that (I have dived often with instabuddies) but I keep in mind that I don't know how they will react to something that goes wrong.

What do you mean 'what happens if both you and DM have problems?' Sorry but I am not sure what you are trying to get at with that comment. In diving with groups of three, if two people have problems (be it DM, or either of the other divers), the third has to choose to go help out, that was the point I was trying to make out. With regular dive buddies a team of three can be great, as you have extra redundancy and you know what to expect from the others, but with instabuddies I do not find it a safe way to dive.

 

[Sas]

Yes I know that problem. It would be better to have 1 DM one customer. In fact that is a big problem I didn't think about before.

Probably that is most ideal but I think I can see why they do not do that as it is less practical for the dive op (and probably costs them more). When I first got certified I did a few dives with a DM, and they usually dived alone leading the group and we were all in buddy pairs. I asked about this and they said they did this so that if something went wrong with someone they would not be leaving behind their buddy to go help out.

Always new buddies, but that's the way it is if you are close to a tourist place. Living in Thailand, either you dive just with the DM because no customer (if lucky) or in the worset situation the DM has just total 65 dives made on the same two spots takes 7 people and says "We dive together" no buddies assigned at all. I saw that a couple of times at below 30 meter. I am pretty unhappy with that. Some excellent diver and some not so good one. But you don't know before. I myself just got a second first stage and regulator as one step to be less depending on someone else (but need to figure out if someone has tanks with two valves). Basically always when I am on a diving boat no one ever saw the others before (beside some families, husband and wife diving together). I don't know if there is statistic about accidents in Thailand

Wow DMs with 65 dives. That is less than me and I would never be comfortable leading people around on dives! Seeing as you're in a tourist place, is there other people that live there who have the same problem as you with finding a long term buddy? Maybe you could pair up with them? I don't live in a tourist area, but there aren't heaps of divers around as it is a bit chilly, so used to show up each weekend and get an instabuddy. I have met a regular buddy now and it is so much less hassle! Hopefully you can find one too.

Yes you are right. That point above: buddy ascents, DM tries to stop, goes up with him. I stay down, of course want to make the deco, but than I have no redundance anymore. That argument is really beating! Just a few dives ago one buddy just ascented quick and without notice, because he need to go to the toilet .
If such a guy is your redundance..........

That is what concerns me to be honest. I have decided not to dive below 30m again without redundant gas source because even though me and my buddy go fine underwater 99.9% of the time, I just want to ensure that if for some reason I can't get to him to share gas, I can sort out myself. We're planning a few dives to wrecks below 30m next month, and have decided to hire ponies. Eventually I will get manifolded twins. With courses to do (so back to your original question ) a lot of this stuff was covered in my Deep course - but I agree that a lot of the Deep courses may not go into heaps of detail + may not be worth doing. I found it very worthwhile though! I learned a lot about gas management, decompression, dive planning in general, etc.

 

[h90]

Probably that is most ideal but I think I can see why they do not do that as it is less practical for the dive op (and probably costs them more). When I first got certified I did a few dives with a DM, and they usually dived alone leading the group and we were all in buddy pairs. I asked about this and they said they did this so that if something went wrong with someone they would not be leaving behind their buddy to go help out.



Wow DMs with 65 dives. That is less than me and I would never be comfortable leading people around on dives! Seeing as you're in a tourist place, is there other people that live there who have the same problem as you with finding a long term buddy? Maybe you could pair up with them? I don't live in a tourist area, but there aren't heaps of divers around as it is a bit chilly, so used to show up each weekend and get an instabuddy. I have met a regular buddy now and it is so much less hassle! Hopefully you can find one too.



That is what concerns me to be honest. I have decided not to dive below 30m again without redundant gas source because even though me and my buddy go fine underwater 99.9% of the time, I just want to ensure that if for some reason I can't get to him to share gas, I can sort out myself. We're planning a few dives to wrecks below 30m next month, and have decided to hire ponies. Eventually I will get manifolded twins. With courses to do (so back to your original question ) a lot of this stuff was covered in my Deep course - but I agree that a lot of the Deep courses may not go into heaps of detail + may not be worth doing. I found it very worthwhile though! I learned a lot about gas management, decompression, dive planning in general, etc.

Don't you know that "from zero to hero" courses. You help in the dive shop, get quickly the required dives. But just the 2-5 sites the shop goes every day and than you are DM. That's the complete legal way. I don't know what happens if the DM has a hang over, but there are a lot customer....VERY common in Thailand

 

[Colliam7]

My course was wonderful good. But I saw DC offering it in 1 1/2 days. 1/2 day theoretic 1 day in the water. In my opinion that's far to less. As well the PADI test is a joke. I am sure without reading the book and after 5 beer I can do the 50%. So the PADI level is really low.....

I am not following this statement. YOU had a good course, but saw somewhere else that it was offered in 1 1/2 days? And, 50% on what? The exam? That is not the passing grade, at least for the PADI course.

Also, I don't think the Rescue Diver course, at least not the PADI RD course, can be taught in one 'water' day and meet standards. No more than 3 training dives are allowed in one day for a course, and RD has four 'loggable' dives, irrespective of their length and depth. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding and I have only seen it taight (and taught it) with a minumum of two 'water' days.

Help us out here with a little more detail on the RD course you took, or saw. I realize that was not the focus of your post, but it is nonbetheless a bit confusing.

 

[ucfdiver]

Beside that immediatly OOA due to a technical failure is extrem improbable. Did you saw a technical failure (time is planed, pressure frequently checked) which caused immediately OOA, ever? Basically that can only happen if the first stage is blocked, which shouldn't happen if it is frequently serviced. 10 Meters away wouldn't be possible. They told us to be very close to each other and I am sure they would abort the dive if someone swims 10 Meter away. (I am only speaking for this Dive Center, I don't know the others). I would say the remaining risk is far lower than with skiing in winter, going with the mountain bike or driving a car. Doing it for many years with a lot people tells enough for me. The owner of the DC is arround 55 and is doing it for decades without accidents (as he told me). I can live with that remaining risk that I am the one out of 10.000 people and many years who gets an accident.

10m is a long ways away for someone who's under the influence of a narcotic (nitrogen) to recognize a problem, swim 30ft towards a dive buddy who may be moving the opposite way (maybe against a current?), signal him, and have the said dive buddy (under the influence of a narcotic as well) donate gas. Now the two of you will have to ascend together (remember you're orally inflating that BC at this point as well), and do a safety stop or deco while sharing air.

This is an excellent way to get someone killed. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to you and stealing your money.

Check out a search for "deep air" on an old tech diver mailing list.
Aquanaut Mailing List Archive Service
Notice nearly every time it comes up, there's a death associated with it? Take it one step further and you'll notice several postings (Search for Irvine) that describe deep air TRAINING deaths. Also remember accident analysis statistics for cave diving (since they're some of the best recorded) state that END >100/130 is the #4 reason for cave deaths.

At the end of the day, we can't make 100% sure that nothing goes wrong at depth. We can however do everything in our power to prevent it from happening, and make every effort to come up with a plan on how to deal with it WHEN it happens.

 

[h90]

I am not following this statement. YOU had a good course, but saw somewhere else that it was offered in 1 1/2 days? And, 50% on what? The exam? That is not the passing grade, at least for the PADI course.

Also, I don't think the Rescue Diver course, at least not the PADI RD course, can be taught in one 'water' day and meet standards. No more than 3 training dives are allowed in one day for a course, and RD has four 'loggable' dives, irrespective of their length and depth. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding and I have only seen it taight (and taught it) with a minumum of two 'water' days.

Help us out here with a little more detail on the RD course you took, or saw. I realize that was not the focus of your post, but it is nonbetheless a bit confusing.

Sorry that was missleading....English is not my motherlanguage.
My Rescue Diver had 3/4 day theoretic (with me learned the book before) and 2 full day at the water but also speaking/discussing all the time.

Other Shops offer it with just 1 day at the water. Not a rumor they direct told me that they can do it and that it is enough. Actually many small shops don't have an own boat and rent themself the places at bigger DC boats. So 1 day is half the costs.

With 50 % I mean the final multiple choice test (not sure if it is correct, but they told me I need to have 50 % to pass. In fact I had 96 %. One question I didn't read carefully and miss read "inside/outside". The other question was not clear with what they mean with "near".
If it is true that 50% is enough to pass the multiple choice, I would like to try if my old mother (she is smart) who never dove could pass it with common sense.

I hope my English was clear...If not please ask.... I often do things trilingual and at the end it is not understandable in any language

 

[mislav]

Sas, seems to me you're drawing your conclusion of groups of three divers being unsafe based on a very unlikely scenario that two of the divers from the same group will have the immediate OOA situation at the same time. The chances of this happening are very small. What might happen more often though is one diver running out of air and then you have a buddy and a DM to help you out. This makes diving in a group of three safer than being with DM alone. It's always better to have more redundancies than not to have them - regardless of the divers training levels. In case your buddy has no clue how to react when you're in trouble - you can always bail yourself out using their air supply.

From your posts I gather you are not yet a confident diver. I would definitely recommend some additional training for you as well. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you wish to discuss how dives should be organized and guided - you should get some experience doing so first.

Please don't dismiss DMs in general by looking at the number of dives they logged. Sure, your skepticism is completely justified with a number of DMs out there, but surely not all of them are bad.

And 60 logged dives? Well, that's the worldwide PADI standard requirement for getting the DM badge. It's not only in Thailand, it's just the same in Australia.

Dives logged during the DM internship are often quite different from dives logged by a rec diver on guided dives. You do get experience and necessary training to guide the dives competently. So in those terms 10 logged dives guiding may be well worth more than 100 dives following someone around the dive site.