Rescue Diver, Thanks to the forum/thoughts and what next?

[ucfdiver]

That, and deep deco classes (should) require helium which he's already stated he doesn't want to pay for.

100% agree. I guess he could take a deco class for extended bottom time at depths <100ft (many of us in FL who mainly dive caves do this), but that doesn't sound like the type of diving he's interested in.

Are you sure? People here are doing deco all the time with normal gear. As well where I dove the 47 meter deep wrack, all the Dive Center who are going there use normal gear and do the deco with normal gear.
Actually I do have the first and second stage double, so that wouldn't be a problem.
I would like to be able to plan such "deep" dives myself, as well after some more experience I would like to make a solo-diver course (I know that I don't have enough experience for it yet but I need a target to be set).

Taking an untrained diver to 47m, on a wreck, when he/she admittedly could not plan the dive themselves, on non redundant gear speaks volumes about this dive-ops judgment. I would look elsewhere for my dive training if I were you. What happens if you have a burst disk or tank neck oring failure and deco commitment?

 

[h90]

100% agree. I guess he could take a deco class for extended bottom time at depths <100ft (many of us in FL who mainly dive caves do this), but that doesn't sound like the type of diving he's interested in.


Taking an untrained diver to 47m, on a wreck, when he/she admittedly could not plan the dive themselves, on non redundant gear speaks volumes about this dive-ops judgment. I would look elsewhere for my dive training if I were you. What happens if you have a burst disk or tank neck oring failure and deco commitment?

You take the DM or buddys octopus, as well there were (two I think) bottles hanging from the boat. So there is reduntants.

 

[h90]

Why do you need to do another course if none seem appropriate? There is no obligation to keep doing courses, as you mentioned you have another thread on this topic as well so I was wondering why you keep asking? You got a lot of good advice here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/213802-what-course-do-next.html

You have mentioned deep diving a few times, find a good instructor or mentor and get them to train you beyond what the PADI deep diver course will. One dive to 47m and a handful below 30m means you are very inexperienced in deep diving and with only 60 dives, are a very inexperienced diver in general and would benefit from a mentor/instructor. They can also work out with you what is most appropriate for future training.

Thanks for the link to the old thread. I already forgot that there was some good ideas. I'll reread it.
On the good instructor/mentor: I fully agree. Just the closest diving area here focus on day trip Tourists which goes to the same 3 locations every day. With just PADI. Or you rent a boat and do it complete yourself (expensive as well). Lack of good instructor/mentor is the reason why I torture the forum with my questions .
But will reread the old thread now...I lot good links are there.
Thanks
h90

 

[Sas]

You take the DM or buddys octopus, as well there were (two I think) bottles hanging from the boat. So there is reduntants.

What happens if your buddy or DM disappears? Or you cannot make it back to the hang tanks? It is a very dangerous thing to expect others to bail you out of trouble...

 

[driftwood]

Thanks for the link to the old thread. I already forgot that there was some good ideas. I'll reread it.
On the good instructor/mentor: I fully agree. Just the closest diving area here focus on day trip Tourists which goes to the same 3 locations every day. With just PADI. Or you rent a boat and do it complete yourself (expensive as well). Lack of good instructor/mentor is the reason why I torture the forum with my questions .
But will reread the old thread now...I lot good links are there.
Thanks
h90

From your first posts on this thread, I thought save me from a buddy like you. Pushing the limits with just a hope that things would work out alright is there was a problem.

My original suggestion would have been that you stay way from divemaster training. Since you seem to understand the value of the rescue class and how it changes your perception of diving, a through DM program might balance your passion with effectively dealing with common safety problmes

 

[h90]

What happens if your buddy or DM disappears? Or you cannot make it back to the hang tanks? It is a very dangerous thing to expect others to bail you out of trouble...

Well 3-4 Dive Center go there 1-3 times per week. Lets say in average every day a group is diving there since many years. So thousands of dives/people without any accident. All on normal scuba gear.
The Dive Center I went with requires to make 2 checkout dives with them first. So they know you really have the skills. The others just take everyone (what is not a good idea in my opinion), but still zero accidents.
I need to add: visibility 30-40 meter....so very unlikely that buddy and DM disappears and my gear gets at the same time a fatal failure. Most or all the instructor there are also technical divers but just take the recreational gear for that.

 

[Sas]

Well 3-4 Dive Center go there 1-3 times per week. Lets say in average every day a group is diving there since many years. So thousands of dives/people without any accident. All on normal scuba gear.
The Dive Center I went with requires to make 2 checkout dives with them first. So they know you really have the skills. The others just take everyone (what is not a good idea in my opinion), but still zero accidents.
I need to add: visibility 30-40 meter....so very unlikely that buddy and DM disappears and my gear gets at the same time a fatal failure. Most or all the instructor there are also technical divers but just take the recreational gear for that.

If there have been no incidents in the past, does not mean that there won't be any incidents in the future, regardless of the great viz and the technical instructors around. Also 'very unlikely' is not 'impossible'. I never want to go to 47m without redundancy and be reliant on someone else to get me out of trouble. Most dives go off without a hitch, but you are upping your chances of a problem going to 47m without training and without redundancy.

For example, if your buddy happens to swim 10m away (so still within your sights) and you go OOA for some reason, do you think you can swim all the way to them to signal you are OOA? I'd imagine many people would get into trouble trying to do that, like panicking. Which you do not want to happen at 47m...

If you are not bothered by the extra risk, by all means, keep doing those dives to those depths, lots of people have different tolerances for risk and as long as they are just risking themselves they can do what they want. But as you said you like to do things 'super carefully' I think you really need to reconsider the type of diving you are doing when you do not have the training and redundancy for it.

 

[h90]

If there have been no incidents in the past, does not mean that there won't be any incidents in the future, regardless of the great viz and the technical instructors around. Also 'very unlikely' is not 'impossible'. I never want to go to 47m without redundancy and be reliant on someone else to get me out of trouble. Most dives go off without a hitch, but you are upping your chances of a problem going to 47m without training and without redundancy.

For example, if your buddy happens to swim 10m away (so still within your sights) and you go OOA for some reason, do you think you can swim all the way to them to signal you are OOA? I'd imagine many people would get into trouble trying to do that, like panicking. Which you do not want to happen at 47m...

If you are not bothered by the extra risk, by all means, keep doing those dives to those depths, lots of people have different tolerances for risk and as long as they are just risking themselves they can do what they want. But as you said you like to do things 'super carefully' I think you really need to reconsider the type of diving you are doing when you do not have the training and redundancy for it.

Beside that immediatly OOA due to a technical failure is extrem improbable. Did you saw a technical failure (time is planed, pressure frequently checked) which caused immediately OOA, ever? Basically that can only happen if the first stage is blocked, which shouldn't happen if it is frequently serviced. 10 Meters away wouldn't be possible. They told us to be very close to each other and I am sure they would abort the dive if someone swims 10 Meter away. (I am only speaking for this Dive Center, I don't know the others). I would say the remaining risk is far lower than with skiing in winter, going with the mountain bike or driving a car. Doing it for many years with a lot people tells enough for me. The owner of the DC is arround 55 and is doing it for decades without accidents (as he told me). I can live with that remaining risk that I am the one out of 10.000 people and many years who gets an accident.

 

[Sas]

Ok so you did the 47m dive with that dive op? I thought it was Croatia so a different place... how did they run their dive operations? They are taking untrained divers with less than 60 dives (such as yourself) down to 47m with no redundant equipment so safety is not at the forefront of their minds actually. I don't really care what kinds of dives people do really, and if they dive outside their training, that is a personal decision so do what you want really . I was just trying to highlight the potential problems you might have on deeper divers as you said you wanted to be very safe with your diving.

Also, you may do your best to stick close to your buddy, but again you have posted elsewhere that you have a different buddy each dive. You might be unlucky and end up with an idiot who leaves you at depth. I personally do not like to dive with the assumption that someone else will always be around to bail me out. Also if you plan to dive with places other than this dive shop, you may not always have 40m viz and technical dive instructors sticking like glue to you. Aborting a dive *after* buddies have swum off 10m is a bit late if something were to go wrong also..

Edit: Oh I forgot to answer one of your questions sorry. Yes I have seen a first stage freeflow to OOA on another diver (not me or a buddy though). My buddy has also seen this occur with a buddy. We are both only certified this year so it is not like we've been on 100s of dives either, where sooner or later something usually goes wrong...

 

[h90]

Ok so you did the 47m dive with that dive op? I thought it was Croatia so a different place... how did they run their dive operations? They are taking untrained divers with less than 60 dives (such as yourself) down to 47m with no redundant equipment so safety is not at the forefront of their minds actually. I don't really care what kinds of dives people do really, and if they dive outside their training, that is a personal decision so do what you want really . I was just trying to highlight the potential problems you might have on deeper divers as you said you wanted to be very safe with your diving.

Also, you may do your best to stick close to your buddy, but again you have posted elsewhere that you have a different buddy each dive. You might be unlucky and end up with an idiot who leaves you at depth. I personally do not like to dive with the assumption that someone else will always be around to bail me out. Also if you plan to dive with places other than this dive shop, you may not always have 40m viz and technical dive instructors sticking like glue to you.

Edit: Oh I forgot to answer one of your questions sorry. Yes I have seen a first stage freeflow to OOA on another diver (not me or a buddy though). My buddy has also seen this occur with a buddy. We are both only certified this year so it is not like we've been on 100s of dives either, where sooner or later something usually goes wrong...

yes freeflow...how much time do you have considering the worst case at a 15 liter tank and 120 bar (which was the minimum for starting the ascent). Enough to get someone who is close to you, to share air? I think you misunderstood the setup of the whole thing....it was groups of 2 or 3 people: 1xDM (I think everyone was Instructor) and 1 or 2 customer. So my buddy and the DM must be idiots swimming away from me. The buddy also had 2 checkout dives before (on a different day) at 40 meter. Someone crazy is not taken. Swimming away would result in aborting the dive (I guess, I didn't try it).

Yes it was in Croatia.

I think for any reason you got a complete wrong picture of that. It was not that a random buddy and we just jumped in the water and went for a 47 meter deco dive. From estimate 8 people under water 3 were DM or Instructor from the shop.
In my opinion the usual 20 meter "jump in the water and dive without thinking and planing" dives are way more dangerouse.