Right or Wrong?

[MikeFerrara]

I've been on both sides of this since I've dived off charters been an instructor and shop owner (hey Rick...cavern, wreck and ice...LOL) and if a business owner decides a situation represents a risk that he is unable to accept I understand even if I may not agree. It's his livelyhood and his decision.

At the same time the poor quality of some training has devalued the "card" and there's a card for everything. Some seem to want those cards to become licenses which they're not at the moment.

Sooner or later a diver has to rely on their own judgment no matter how many cards they have. I have a cave card but there are some cave dives that I choose not to do...the same with wrecks. I most likely have the cards but that doesn't mean that I'm up to a given dive and no one but me is in a position to make that decision (since I have the cards)...and the cards don't help.

Once you get far enough along the learing curve you find out that when it's not fun it's not safe and cards have little bearing on it. A boat owner needs to do what he thinks is best and I'll do what I think is best...on his boat or on another.

In fact all the easy to get cards might even be part of what gets divers so eager to go out and do dives that they really aren't going to enjoy and maybe not even survive.

 

[rkr3000]

As a responsibility of the diver to always carry their various cert. and specialty cards. It's for the safety of everyone involved, not just the diver in question. Would you be expected to get to hop in the cockpit of a plane on just your word that you're trained to fly it?! The diver has to take responsibility for him/herself and understand the views of the dive op and DM - and the liability risks that puts them in. Plus, what danger would the diver's buddy be in if the diver in question screws up because he really wasn't certified properly. People lie - or eggagerate - sometimes for various reasons. In the end, it's CYA (cover your a**), for your own sake as well as everyone else involved.

 

[Kim]

To a large extent I'm with Mike on this one. One thing that sometimes appears to me to be lacking in training - especially in the earlier stages - is diver responsibility. Sure, a card says that you have done something, but it doesn't really show that you have learned it ever, or sometimes more to the point that you remember it now. Divers don't really seem to be taught to evaluate dives - i.e. risk planning. Some of the comments about Truk illustrate that quite well. People go there to dive the wrecks and I'm willing to bet that everyday people risk their lives doing stuff that they shouldn't be anywhere near - but they are oblivious to the dangers themselves. One place that I know of that is like that is Sipidan. There is a huge cave there that is actually very dangerous, even turtles get lost inside it and drown. While I was doing my overhead course in Malaysia we got quite an interested audience watching us learning/practicing reel/line skills on land. At dinner one night a French guy came up to our table who introduced himself as an instructor from a shop in Sipidan. They did trust me tours into the Sipidan cave. He wanted to know what we were doing with the reels - and what they were for!
Faced with that sort of thing, if the diver him/herself doesn't realize what they might be letting themselves in for then it is difficult to see how they can evaluate risk. Like Mike said - just because you hold a card that says you should be able to do something, does that mean you can? At the end of the day the individual diver normally has to make the decision themselves.
In the same way that there are many people with driving licenses who kill themselves on the roads everyday - there are many divers who die doing things that they hold cards that say they should be able to do. Conversely there are a lot of divers with almost no cards, but a huge amount of experience, that have been at it for years. Scuba diving is very much a personal responsibility thing - much more important when you are part of a team. It's your own responsibility to get the right training, to practice it and to know your own limits and stay within them. Cards tell part of the story - but not all of it by a long way IMO.

 

[Patty]

I'm waiting for the DM to come to me and say - there's fish out there on this dive, and you don't have the diving near fish specialty, so sorry ...

 

[H2Andy]

reminds of me that saying, "Lord, give me strength to change the things I can change, give me courage to accept the things I cannot change, and grant me wisdom to know the difference”.

there are basically two kinds of dives:

1. those in which you push the edge of your knowledge and learn as a result; and

2. those where you leave the realm of your knowledge and go into a whole new
different world.

Having an OW card clearing you to 60 feet and then making some dives to 100
when you feel comfortable definetely belongs in category 1.

Having an OW card and going into a cave without any overhead training definetely
belongs in category 2.


A full-cave diver going into a wreck is probably category 1. Why? The penetration
techniques are the same, low vis, etc. Yes, there are some unique problems, such
as more entanglement hazzards, but a well-configured, well-trained cave diver should
keep these to a minimum.

However, these categories are going to change according to the diver, and maybe
even the dive.

Hence, the "give me wisdom" part.

 

[GDI]

I've been on both sides of this since I've dived off charters been an instructor and shop owner (hey Rick...cavern, wreck and ice...LOL) and if a business owner decides a situation represents a risk that he is unable to accept I understand even if I may not agree. It's his livelyhood and his decision.

At the same time the poor quality of some training has devalued the "card" and there's a card for everything. Some seem to want those cards to become licenses which they're not at the moment..

As I said, A Card represents that training has been untaken but it does not represent the thoroughness or the quality of that training. I'm not looking at making any card a license, that means government and we hopefully don't need that.

Sooner or later a diver has to rely on their own judgment no matter how many cards they have. I have a cave card but there are some cave dives that I choose not to do...the same with wrecks. I most likely have the cards but that doesn't mean that I'm up to a given dive and no one but me is in a position to make that decision (since I have the cards)...and the cards don't help.

Every diver must accept their own level of risk and so goes every charter op. KIM brings up a good point in that maybe starting right at the OW level they need to better learn to assess their "dive no dive" decission making abilities?

Once you get far enough along the learing curve you find out that when it's not fun it's not safe and cards have little bearing on it. A boat owner needs to do what he thinks is best and I'll do what I think is best...on his boat or on another.

In fact all the easy to get cards might even be part of what gets divers so eager to go out and do dives that they really aren't going to enjoy and maybe not even survive.

At a certain point you do learn that when it is good and when it is not good to make a dive. It won't be fun and therefore not safe so you back out. BUT the learning curve never really ends.

PS.

(hey Rick...cavern, wreck and ice...LOL)

You like that eh? Actually it's cave, wreck and ice (whoopie) I guess when you add that I do trimix it would appear to some that I can pretty much dive about anywhere. I wish I had a DPV?

 

[Diver0001]

I've never done a dive with someone cave cert.-d who was a "poor" diver, not even Andy.

I see what you're saying but being a great diver doesn't automatically prepare you for everything.....does it? To me there is an issue about a bit of missing experience that a diver, regardless of skills or cert, might have. Maybe there are some things particluar to wrecks (or even specific to a particular wreck) that wouldn't occur to someone right away.....Procedural or equipment matters.... For example, which modification do wreck divers need to make to their drysuit? It's a no-brainer and cave divers might do it too (I wouldn't know) but it can easily get you in big trouble if you don't do it (ie. if it doesn't occur to you). That's what I'm trying to get across.

R..

 

[paolov]

when it's time to die, it's time to die ... regardless of training or experience...

 

[H2Andy]

when it's time to die, it's time to die ... regardless of training or experience...

yeah, but training and experience help postpone the inevitable,
don't they?

(by the way, i can see you are an optimist. don't deny it now!!)

 

[simbrooks]

yeah, but training and experience help postpone the inevitable,
don't they?

(by the way, i can see you are an optimist. don't deny it now!!)

Well if an optimist is a glass half full kind of person, a pessimist a glass half empty, what is a person who just says the glass has half its contents?

I agree, training does help get things in shape, some of it crosses over, but unless the diver in question had done a ton of penetrating wreck dives and had proof i guess it is not unreasonable for the instructor - assuming a position of influence on the boat, can and should deny.