Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[The Chairman]

there are always 2 sides of the story.

the other side is that when you make an agreement with someone, you stick with that agreement. You just don't break that agreement because you get an opportunity to make some quick money.

You certainly don't understand instructors if you think this is only about breaking rules to make some quick money. They just want a level playing field.

Unfortunately, the North Florida Distributor sees the South Florida Distributor, and others, up in his neck of the woods all the time. There are three Revos up in High Springs right now that he has nothing to do with. Is that breaking your rules too? Or is it only one way?

The real problem with the instructor policy is that it does not reflect reality. There are very few 'boundaries' where the internet is concerned. If I develop a strong relationship with an instructor up in New York area and want to learn from him in my back yard, then trying to prohibit that is bassackward. If I buy my rebreather from him, then that's where the sale happens. Where I do my training, like in sunny Key Largo, is after the fact. As a consumer, I would be all sorts of pissed off if I was told I had to train on the unit in New York due to some draconian rules based on the guy in South Florida feeling he lost a sale. If he had provided great service, he would have gotten the sale in the first place. I want to be able to choose my instructor without being restricted to a specific area to train in.

Paul, it's your business to run as you see fit. All we can do is discuss how that affects me as the consumer and the limitations it has on me becoming an instructor for the unit. I have been told that the same demands were made on two other rebreather manufacturers and they were all but laughed out of the booths at DEMA. We abhor protectionism and the elimination of competition in the market place. That this is a written policy for Revo makes it far less attractive to me. I had one of your competitors tell me that they applaud your decision to do business this way as you will have a much smaller impact on their business.

 

[The Chairman]

Lastly, and I just can't help myself... You know this post would get a bigger targeted audience on Rebreatherworld.

It would get me kicked off of there... it probably already has! However, we have more people that are simply curious about rebreathers here on ScubaBoard. This is where Joe Diver first learns about them and many, many decisions about that first rebreather are made right here. The same could be said about spearguns and cameras. The potential first time buyers are poking around here and not at the more focused forums.

One last last thing. Given your location and description of the issue, I feel I could win a $100 bet on who at least one of your dinner guests was.

As I posted in the OP: "It's no secret". Maybe they will come in and ID themselves, or maybe not. If you are still guessing, just do a search on used Revos for sale. It can't be that hard.

 

[paulraymaekers]

You certainly don't understand instructors if you think this is only about breaking rules to make some quick money. They just want a level playing field.

Unfortunately, the North Florida Distributor sees the South Florida Distributor, and others, up in his neck of the woods all the time. There are three Revos up in High Springs right now that he has nothing to do with. Is that breaking your rules too? Or is it only one way?

The real problem with the instructor policy is that it does not reflect reality. There are very few 'boundaries' where the internet is concerned. If I develop a strong relationship with an instructor up in New York area and want to learn from him in my back yard, then trying to prohibit that is bassackward. If I buy my rebreather from him, then that's where the sale happens. Where I do my training, like in sunny Key Largo, is after the fact. As a consumer, I would be all sorts of pissed off if I was told I had to train on the unit in New York due to some draconian rules based on the guy in South Florida feeling he lost a sale. If he had provided great service, he would have gotten the sale in the first place. I want to be able to choose my instructor without being restricted to a specific area to train in.

Paul, it's your business to run as you see fit. All we can do is discuss how that affects me as the consumer and the limitations it has on me becoming an instructor for the unit. I have been told that the same demands were made on two other rebreather manufacturers and they were all but laughed out of the booths at DEMA. We abhor protectionism and the elimination of competition in the market place. That this is a written policy for Revo makes it far less attractive to me. I had one of your competitors tell me that they applaud your decision to do business this way as you will have a much smaller impact on their business.

Pete, I understand that you use your board for promotion of your friends businesses, that is your right of course. Sadly you also only listen to 1 side of the story.

I don't think this is a fair discussion when the owner of the forum himself opens a thread to fight someone in favour of his personal friends.

I had personal talks with all 3 of the people involved, they all have my mail address, they have always been able to contact me, and they still do

so for me this thread is now closed

 

[Jax]

Pete, I understand that you use your board for promotion of your friends businesses, that is your right of course. Sadly you also only listen to 1 side of the story.

I don't think this is a fair discussion when the owner of the forum himself opens a thread to fight someone in favour of his personal friends.

I had personal talks with all 3 of the people involved, they all have my mail address, they have always been able to contact me, and they still do

so for me this thread is now closed

Why do you say this? I see no fight in Netdoc's words - and I have no dog in the fight as I do not dive rebreather.

I am a capitalist, and restrictive policies are anti-capitalism. Instead of attacking Netdoc, how about you attack the idea that your policies are unfair to the consumer and the budding instructor? Competition is always better for the consumer.

Please explain why your way of doing business is better?

 

[fdarden]

Inviting the low informed public in to comment on your personal business grievances might not be the best idea. I am not sure what you are accomplishing other than pointing out that Paul has a reseller agreement, and that he is a man of his word, that stands behind his legal agreements. There is nothing unusual about that. As difficult as it may be for you to grasp, this is common business practice. You don't have to like it, but making a public spectacle out of it is sort of pathetic.


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[The Chairman]

Pete, I understand that you use your board for promotion of your friends businesses, that is your right of course. Sadly you also only listen to 1 side of the story.

Paul, I'm sorry you feel that I'm somehow being unfair to you. It's easy to say I won't listen when you refuse to tell us your version or answer our questions and concerns. I would love to hear your side of the story. That is also 'your right' to keep us in the dark but it's not a very transparent way to do business. It might not be an easy discussion. It might not be a convenient discussion. But in the end, these are fair questions that deserve straight forward answers.

 

[Jax]

Inviting the low informed public in to comment on your personal business grievances might not be the best idea. I am not sure what you are accomplishing other than pointing out that Paul has a reseller agreement, and that he is a man of his word, that stands behind his legal agreements. There is nothing unusual about that. As difficult as it may be for you to grasp, this is common business practice. You don't have to like it, but making a public spectacle out of it is sort of pathetic.


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Why do you say this? Consumers have rights, too. We should know what we are being 'herded into' by restrictive protectionist policies.

 

[Wookie]

I do not find it odd that a manufacturer gives a territory to a dealer. If I want to buy Caterpillar engines in Key West, I go to Key West Engine Service, not Pantropic. If I want engines from Pantropic, I go to Miami. What I need to remember is that when I want warranty service in Key West, I'm going to pay a Pantropic Mechanic 4 hours driving each way, or take the boat back to Miami. I happen to have a relationship with the guy at Caterpillar who stages spare engines all over the world in support of the oil companies. When they get stale, he sells them very inexpensively, with no warranty. If I choose to buy those engines, I can have Key West Engine Services work on them all I want, they aren't in warranty anyway.

This is a tried and true sales model which has worked for a hundred years. Only in the scuba business do we throw away dealer networks as "archaic". We do this because we're chasing pennies instead of grabbing dollars.

The South Florida dealer is obviously Add Helium. I have remarked a number of times to the partners that a whole lot of Revos come out of that shop, maybe disproportionately so. I have been told repeatedly that it is because the owners truly believe in the Revo, but if you want one of the other 6 brands that they sell, they have an instructor ready to teach you. I believe this as friends of mine have taken Meg training from Citelli, Claudia is back in a Op2ima, and the reason folks go to Add Helium is that they have supplies, they have cartridges, they have everything you need to dive your rebreather including trips that they lead. I consider this to be what a full service dive shop is all about. You aren't going to get that level of service from a dive shop that sells 6 rebreathers a year.

I run a tech diving boat. I see hundreds of rebreathers per year. I see far more APs than any other on my researchers. As far as sport diving goes, Revo and Op2ima are definitely leading the race, with Meg right on their heels. I'm seeing more JJs, but still a drop in the bucket compared to the others. APs and Prism 2 are a minority. I see more AP failures than any others, I've only seen one failure of a Meg and only one from an Op2ima, both handsets. I've never seen a Revo fail aside from operator error, failure to operate the Dream properly.

Kudos for Paul for making such a robust rebreather. If instructors are whining that they can't break into the dealer network, let them chase pennies. I'm sure Paul is doing fine with his dealer network just as it is.

---------- Post added November 27th, 2015 at 12:20 PM ----------

Why do you say this? Consumers have rights, too. We should know what we are being 'herded into' by restrictive protectionist policies.

It is your right to walk on by if you don't like the policies. It is not your right to make Paul change his dealer agreements. Your rights end at your wallet.

 

[Doppler]

Does anyone care to clue the rest of us in on what exactly this ominous sounding "revo instructor policy" is?

As a neutral in this... and someone who regards both Pete and Paul as friends, and that both do a lot for the good of the dive industry... albeit from slightly different starting points, allow me to explain without emotion creeping in.

Paul has, since the release of his unit to the general public, has actively "managed" who can instruct on the rEvo. His explanation was simple... and his reasons based on maintaining a level of quality control and comfort that his brand was being represented professionally in target markets...

Simple as that.

 

[Wookie]

As a neutral in this... and someone who regards both Pete and Paul as friends, and that both do a lot for the good of the dive industry... albeit from slightly different starting points, allow me to explain without emotion creeping in.

Paul has, since the release of his unit to the general public, has actively "managed" who can instruct on the rEvo. His explanation was simple... and his reasons based on maintaining a level of quality control and comfort that his brand was being represented professionally in target markets...

Wasn't RESA formed specifically because there were too many crappy rebreather instructors out there? Wasn't Paul, Leon, and the Partridges instrumental in setting RESA up? Don't we, in the open circuit dive industry bitch about poor quality instruction and the fact that the training agencies should have a better handle on their instructors? Shouldn't we be supporting RESA and the fact that they don't let just any PADI course director teach on a Revo? Now, I happen to know you were at Jim's house yesterday, and I thing Jim is a good guy, but I have no personal knowledge about what kind of instructor he is, but if he wanted to teach on his Revo, I'm sure that he could have found a Revo distributor in Florida that would have let him teach. He has homes in both South as well as North Florida.