Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[BohicaJones]

Cant we just let Rainbow Reef and Add Helium go head to head and the rest of us just watch? If Paul (and Peter) doesn't want Jim, Georgia, or Kevin teaching then so be it. Let Revo lose money. DiveRite or any other manufacturer will have no problem filling the void. But dear God can we not make it out that the big bad rebreather manufacturer is out to get the little tiny instructors who happen to work for / with / around the largest shop in Key Largo, and the largest IDC in America. Your Thanksgiving dinner happened to be with people that contribute to the adds lining my computer screen right now, and have made plenty of drama of their own over the past few years. Karma has a way of coming back.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

When I first read the OP I suspected the thread would go awry, and it has to some degree. While my thinking was to read and not post about this -- I am now going to explain my small part of the rEvo story alluded to by NetDoc.

Let me first state that I am a free market capitalist and believe in Laissez-faire economics. Because of that I firmly believe that any company has the right to do business as they want so long as they maintain a level playing field.

In my case, I do now live between Key Largo and High Springs for about the last 18 months. The “issue” is that I have been prohibited by rEvo from teaching rEvo classes and selling rEvo rebreathers in Key Largo because it is someone else’s territory. I would have no problem with that prohibition *IF* the other rEvo instructors were prohibited from teaching in my territory. But they are not.

It is very common to see a few rEvo instructors teaching entry level and CCR cave rEvo classes in my North Florida territory. I never had a problem with that because my thinking was that somehow they were better at marketing the rEvo than I was. At that point I simply tried to figure out how for me to do a better job competing.

Fast forward to 2014 when Gwen and I bought a house in Key Largo and I started driving dive boats and teaching some classes there. I was admonished to not teach rEvo classes in Key Largo. I said I would agree to this *if* the other rEvo instructors were admonished to not teach in High Springs/North Florida, my assigned territory, making a more level playing field.

I was informed that this would not happen. That the others still could teach in North Florida because it is a diving “destination” – I countered that Key Largo is a dive destination, to no avail.

And yes there are three rEvos sitting at Cave Country Dive Shop ... brand new in the box from rEvo headquarters for another rEvo instructor to show up and teach a rEvo class with.

So as we stand now it is OK for other rEvo instructors to teach in my territory, but I am prohibited from teaching in Key Largo. That is my problem.

 

[The Chairman]

It is your right to walk on by if you don't like the policies. It is not your right to make Paul change his dealer agreements. Your rights end at your wallet.

It's also her, your and my right to post our opinions and ask questions about those policies.

Paul has, since the release of his unit to the general public, has actively "managed" who can instruct on the rEvo. His explanation was simple... and his reasons based on maintaining a level of quality control and comfort that his brand was being represented professionally in target markets...

I don't think 'quality' has much to do with this, Steve. It's all about one way protectionism as far as I can see.

That the others still could teach in North Florida because it is a diving “destination” – I countered that Key Largo is a dive destination, to no avail.

I was trying to understand this yesterday. How is it that Cave Country is considered to be a dive destination, but the Florida Keys is not? There's like 60+ shops here in Monroe County and somehow we're not considered a destination? Key Largo even proclaims itself to be the Dive Capital of the World. There's probably a hundred fold difference in Key Largo's favor on the number of dives happening at each location. I certainly don't understand this as a cogent rationale.

So as we stand now it is OK for other rEvo instructors to teach in my territory, but I am prohibited from teaching in Key Largo. That is my problem.

Nor can anyone aspire to be an independent Revo instructor. But, as I understand it, this prohibition comes only from Revo. The training agency you teach under and who prints the cards, has no issues where you teach your students.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am not a rebreather diver, so I have no dog in this fight. I do have some comments on the "diving destination" issue based on a recent debate on pretty much the same thing in the Cozumel forum. That debate was unresolved, but perhaps it can inform the issue a little.

Local dive shops in the USA regularly lead trips to Cozumel and other destinations around the world. On those trips, the designated dive leader will often take care of some certifications for customers on the trip. I have done it myself. Technical dive instructors who need a good place to do technical diving will often take their students to a place like that as well. So here's the question that was asked in the Cozumel forum: does an instructor from the USA who is teaching students from the USA while in Cozumel (or another country) need to conform to the Mexican laws related to foreigners working in that area? Many in the forum insisted that they do, but others disagreed.

As for my take, I take my cue from the fact that a shop in our area of Colorado regularly takes students on short trips to key Largo for certification. The shop pays taxes in Colorado for the income it receives; it does not pay taxes in Florida for that income. As I understand it, the physical location of the business is what counts. If that Colorado shop also had a branch in Florida, then it would need to pay Florida taxes.

Perhaps that is what is happening here, although possibly imperfectly. If you have a place of business in one location and take students diving in another location, then that other location is a dive destination. If, however, you have a local business location and take students diving near it, then it would be your place of business rather than a dive destination. The quality or quantity of diving would not be a factor. If a Key Largo operator were to have a moment of insanity and bring students to a murky Colorado reservoir for training, then that murky Colorado reservoir would be a dive destination.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Jim makes an excellent point. If it's ok for south Florida instructors to teach in north Florida as cave country is a dive destination, then it should be equally acceptable for Jim or any other instructor from a different territory to teach in south Florida.

As a resident of North Carolina (which could also be described as a "dive destination" for wreck divers) I can assure you we regard north Florida as a destination for cave diving and south Florida as a destination for pretty fish and wreck diving. rEvo deciding one is a destination and the other is not is ludicrous.

As a customer, I appreciated the opportunity to put together a package for rebreathers and training to include an instructor we chose based on knowledge of the unit, actual diving with the unit and compatible personality and teaching style. It had very little to do with where we actually live.

If rEvo is going to in effect tell me where I can and cannot buy a unit and/or who I can or cannot have as an instructor and/or where we, along with that instructor, can decide to dive for that training, then it certainly reinforces our decision to by something other than a rEvo.

 

[that guy]

I have never joined in on one of these discussions before, but since this one directly relates to me, here we go. I have been a PADI Instructor since 1993, a TDI Instructor since 2000 and I became a rEvo Instructor in 2014. Becoming a rEvo Instructor was a touchstone event in my personal and professional career as a diver. I have certified literally thousands of students at all levels of diving. Not one of those students if asked would ever say “Kevin is just out to make a Buck”. I pride myself on providing my students with the best training and equipment available to me. I spent a considerable amount of time and money in the pursuit of the title “ rEvo Instructor”. The training and customer service I received from Jason Fisch and Oceanedge Outfitters was top notch. At the time that I became a rEvo Instructor I was living in Hawaii. I have lived and taught in many places, that is why I chose diving as a career. Wherever I go my credentials as a PADI or TDI Instructor follow. And as of now I will only teach and promote equipment that follows the same policy. That being said Rainbow Reef has the staff, consumables, gases, sites and an awesome fleet of dive vessels to get you where you want to go. We are a complete one stop shop for the needs of every diver from beginner to technical. If you don't believe me come and find out for yourself. Happy Diving Folks

 

[ScubaAl]

I'm getting the impression that is more about another shop wanting to move into anothers territory. Then a instructor taking students to Florida for their training.
I'm trained on both Inspiration and revo. In both cases OW dives/training was done in Florida. This was with a instructor that was not a Florida resident.
When a instructor fills out the students paper work, does it ask for training location?

Al

 

[Superlyte27]

Yes it does.

 

[scubafanatic]

Who needs to watch 'Game of Thrones' when one can just check out the tech 'community' airing their dirty laundry! Life is way too short for all this nonsense, almost feels like the ISIS fanatics debating 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?' ! If only the tech/rebreather wannabes had a clue about all this dirty underbelly....let's just say it's not going to make a good first impression and 'grow' the 'industry'. Do we have any early idea of exactly how spoiled we are if, especially during Thanksgiving season, we have the luxury of getting our panties in a wad over THIS 'issue' ? My goal is simple....just go diving as much as possible before mankind finally kills off what's left of the ocean, and before the terrorists (or war) shut down air travel and we quarantine ourselves off from the rest of the world!

---------- Post added November 27th, 2015 at 03:43 PM ----------

It would get me kicked off of there... it probably already has! However, we have more people that are simply curious about rebreathers here on ScubaBoard. This is where Joe Diver first learns about them and many, many decisions about that first rebreather are made right here. The same could be said about spearguns and cameras. The potential first time buyers are poking around here and not at the more focused forums.

As I posted in the OP: "It's no secret". Maybe they will come in and ID themselves, or maybe not. If you are still guessing, just do a search on used Revos for sale. It can't be that hard.

The 'tech' focused forums (decostop, rebreatherworld, etc.) are generally the most pompous set of arrogant stuffed shirts around! They're all about showing off, one-upmanship, who's the most clever....civilians best stay away, best left for all the SEAL-team wannabes.

 

[Superlyte27]

Scubafanatic, I think you're missing the point in Jim's case. I've gotten to the point where none of this drama matters to me. I never taught for an income. But this is Jim's livelihood. He literally paid his dues. But he's not able to use the arrow in his quiver because he moved. Meanwhile, and I'm friends with most of the Revo instructors in the USA, virtually every single Revo instructor is allowed to teach in High Springs. When Jim can't teach in Key Largo. Even the guy making waves (who owns rebreather world by the way) is allowed to teach in Jim's back yard. This isn't "panties in a twist". This is affecting ones ability to eat, survive, prosper. And one has the right to get upset over the uneven playing field. In the absence of resolution, lots are selling their Revo. Who can blame them?