Safety Stop

[The Chairman]

Zorrr2

It's ALWAYS up to the individual to dive safely. There are no short cuts for that. Trying to impose a set of iron fast rules without any reasoning invloved brings us back to the dark days of Scuba. People should LEARN why we do stops and whether a stop is neccesary for a particular dive.

To wit: I bring my students to Alexander Springs for their first 3 dives. Max depth 24 ffw. Do we need a safety stop after a half hour dive at various depths? NO! Do we do one anyway? Of course! I am TRAINING students and I want to impress certain practices on them. Go figure!

 

[vkalia]

But VKALIA . . . you are now relying on an individual to decide whether he SHOULD or SHOULD NOT make a "SAFETY STOP" ? ?

If he has been diving at ANY depth that has him loading his body up with nitrogen then there should be no QUESTION as to the individual doing a 3 minute SAFTEY STOP. . . and in order to keep things SIMPLE and NON-QUESTIONING to a diver . . we (as dive PROS) have tried to teach the concept that a SAFETY STOP is due at the end of ALL DIVES . . no questions asked !!

Whether it is one dive . . or multi dives for that diver . . it is always SAFER to do the SAFETY STOP and DEGASS ! !

Yes, I am relying on an individual to decide whether or not he should make a safety stop. If they have any doubt, they should do a safety stop - that makes a lot of sense, and covers beginners.

But to be drilled "safety stop uber alles" is not only silly, but also unsafe, as it encourages improper prioritization in the event of an actual emergency. This sort of B&W thinking results in people talking about doing safety stops while sharing air with a highly stressed diver and other such crap.

Black and white rules are fine for beginners but people need to understand that these rules are simplifications, not reality.

Cheers,
Vandit

 

[OneBrightGator]

And all along the way some people are reading this thread and all they get from it is "Safety Stops are optional", period. It's quite possible to dive to 100' to the NDL and ascend directly to the surface without any ill effects, it's also possible to dive to 70', stay well within the NDL, make a slow controlled ascent and end up bent like a pretzel resulting in 30+ dives in a chamber (it happened). The point is that safety stops are important and shouldn’t be brushed off as nothing.

Black and white rules don’t work for beginners either, they need to understand some decompression theory, how to use the tables and understand how they work along with proper emergency response. Reality will kick in whenever it likes, beginners or not.

 

[Scuba Jerm]

plenty of opinons here..... I would venture to say diving presents a risk to those participating in it. (why else would live insurance companies ask if you scuba dive?) If we are asking the question to see if we can delete the practise, we are just inviting possible problems. Why risk it? Safty stop each dive, it's easy right?

 

[vkalia]

And all along the way some people are reading this thread and all they get from it is "Safety Stops are optional", period.

Well, that isnt exactly incorrect, is it? Safety stops ARE optional, period. It is a matter of definition.

Being conservative is always a good idea, but in the interest of intellectual honesty, it is worth understanding what is "required" and what is "recommended and good to have, but optional nonetheless".

Hiding/disguising the fact just because someone would misunderstand is, IMO, the wrong way to go about it.

It's quite possible to dive to 100' to the NDL and ascend directly to the surface without any ill effects, it's also possible to dive to 70', stay well within the NDL, make a slow controlled ascent and end up bent like a pretzel resulting in 30+ dives in a chamber (it happened).

I keep hearing about anecdotes like this. I'd be interested to get some more facts about incidents like this. I'm willing to wager that virtually all incidents involving hits that are well within the NDL usually have some extraneous circumstances: excessive obesity, PFO, alcohol/drugs, etc.

The point is that safety stops are important and shouldn’t be brushed off as nothing.

If we are asking the question to see if we can delete the practise, we are just inviting possible problems. Why risk it? Safty stop each dive, it's easy right?

Ok, mini rant: If I say something is not scorching hot, that doesnt mean that I am saying it is freezing cold. If I say "safety stops are optional and not always needed", that doesnt mean that I am saying we should never do safety stops or that they are nothing.

Why do people insist on thinking in extremes?

Let me reiterate my point: the best tool is in between your ears (or should be, anyway). Use your head and be thinking divers, instead of blindly relying on simply black-and-white rules. It encourages sloppy thinking and even unsafe diving practices.

There are lots of times when you DONT want to d*ck around with safety stops. Near panic situations, OOA among inexperienced divers, rapidly worsening weather conditions, very strong currents, etc.

Leading student divers to think that they run a realistic risk of DCS if they dont do a safety dive after a short shallow dive is wrong. Possibility and probability both need to be taken into account, and I think we do a disservice to our students if we take the easy way out.

My 2 cents - and I do safety stops most of the time as well - by choice, not out of blind faith.

Vandit

 

[rockjock3]

That's cool. We were pretty much "playing around" in relatively shallow water. With his type of diving, I question most of what he says and listen more to experienced divers and instructors. This is the same diver who managed to have his back turned to me and some 5 feet away when my tank valve got stuck on a cord during a night dive. Not that bad, but still a concern!

It is funny rockjock that you define a "safety stop" as being one that is to protect ourselves from our stupidity.

Bill

Yes, to protect us from ourselves. If you have dove for awhile you know there are two types of people that dive. There are those people that are "people that dive" and there are those of us that are "divers.". By far the larger group of those is the first and those are the people that I always see on the charters doing 100-125fsw diving on air, staying down as long as the people on nitrox, and then going going up. They, most of the time, do their safety stop. These are the kind of people that I am talking about. They need to be protected from themselves. By ingraining in them that they need the safety stop then they are somewhat protected from doing stupid things. If they knew enough to know that they didn't really "have to do" the safety stop then they would probably know enough how to dive more safely in the first place and do the safety stop when they felt more comfortable doing it and not when they felt they didn't need to.

 

[vkalia]

Sorry Rockjock, I dont buy that line of thinking.

If people are unaware of safe diving protocols, they need to be taught the right thing - not a short-cut solution.

If they intentionally break safe diving protocols, then there is no reason that everyone else should be fed oversimplifications. It isnt our job to protect people from their own, wilful stupidity.

Vandit

 

[H2Andy]

i don't think i've ever liked a "lowest common denominator" approach to
anything, much less life-support use

 

[ScubaSixString]

Yes, to protect us from ourselves. If you have dove for awhile you know there are two types of people that dive. There are those people that are "people that dive" and there are those of us that are "divers.". By far the larger group of those is the first and those are the people that I always see on the charters doing 100-125fsw diving on air, staying down as long as the people on nitrox, and then going going up. They, most of the time, do their safety stop. These are the kind of people that I am talking about. They need to be protected from themselves. By ingraining in them that they need the safety stop then they are somewhat protected from doing stupid things. If they knew enough to know that they didn't really "have to do" the safety stop then they would probably know enough how to dive more safely in the first place and do the safety stop when they felt more comfortable doing it and not when they felt they didn't need to.

I don't buy it either. You've 'ingrained' in them to do a safety stop, but not to pay attention to their tables/computers? If sparky is going to blow off his AIR NDL because snuffy is on nitrox and gets to stay down longer, then he's just as likely to blow off his safety stop.

If they don't 'know enough' to abide by one of the most basic rules in BOW, then they don't need to be in the water period.

Are safety stops a good idea? It depends. If i'm inside the NDLs for my particular mix then a safety stop is just that. Something you do to be safer.

By turning out students that are robots (you go to this depth...do this...turn here....safety stop here....don't dare do anything different) you are turning out accidents looking for a place to happen, IMHO

 

[lmorin]

Well, that isnt exactly incorrect, is it? Safety stops ARE optional, period. It is a matter of definition.

Being conservative is always a good idea, but in the interest of intellectual honesty, it is worth understanding what is "required" and what is "recommended and good to have, but optional nonetheless".

Hiding/disguising the fact just because someone would misunderstand is, IMO, the wrong way to go about it.



I keep hearing about anecdotes like this. I'd be interested to get some more facts about incidents like this. I'm willing to wager that virtually all incidents involving hits that are well within the NDL usually have some extraneous circumstances: excessive obesity, PFO, alcohol/drugs, etc.





Ok, mini rant: If I say something is not scorching hot, that doesnt mean that I am saying it is freezing cold. If I say "safety stops are optional and not always needed", that doesnt mean that I am saying we should never do safety stops or that they are nothing.

Why do people insist on thinking in extremes?

Let me reiterate my point: the best tool is in between your ears (or should be, anyway). Use your head and be thinking divers, instead of blindly relying on simply black-and-white rules. It encourages sloppy thinking and even unsafe diving practices.

There are lots of times when you DONT want to d*ck around with safety stops. Near panic situations, OOA among inexperienced divers, rapidly worsening weather conditions, very strong currents, etc.

Leading student divers to think that they run a realistic risk of DCS if they dont do a safety dive after a short shallow dive is wrong. Possibility and probability both need to be taken into account, and I think we do a disservice to our students if we take the easy way out.

My 2 cents - and I do safety stops most of the time as well - by choice, not out of blind faith.

Vandit

Thank you for re-stating the obvious in a manner that everyone should be able to understand.