Safety Stop

[tjmills]

But VKALIA . . . you are now relying on an individual to decide whether he SHOULD or SHOULD NOT make a "SAFETY STOP" ? ?

If he has been diving at ANY depth that has him loading his body up with nitrogen then there should be no QUESTION as to the individual doing a 3 minute SAFTEY STOP. . . and in order to keep things SIMPLE and NON-QUESTIONING to a diver . . we (as dive PROS) have tried to teach the concept that a SAFETY STOP is due at the end of ALL DIVES . . no questions asked !!

Whether it is one dive . . or multi dives for that diver . . it is always SAFER to do the SAFETY STOP and DEGASS ! !

I agree with your comments and is good practice. It is good to teach this but swimming around at 15-20 feet for 10-15 minutes could also be considered your safety stop. The idea here is to make someone remember that a safety stop is important on every dive. Better safe than sorry.

What concerns me is that his comments are very derogatory to his buddy which may be warranted but from what he says, it appears he is taking things a little too literally and should look at the overall profile. His comments about a buddy being more than 5 feet away and not paying attention would also be suspect to me as to what is reality and what is not. Maybe I am taking him too literally but you should not rely on anyone but yourself. A buddy is a safety margin....but you are responsible for yourself.

 

[Zoomer]

Reminder: "Every Diver is responsible for their own safety"

My computer wants me to do a safety stop at 15 to 20 feet after every dive.. and guess what.. I do them...

 

[rockjock3]

I don't buy it either. You've 'ingrained' in them to do a safety stop, but not to pay attention to their tables/computers? If sparky is going to blow off his AIR NDL because snuffy is on nitrox and gets to stay down longer, then he's just as likely to blow off his safety stop.

If they don't 'know enough' to abide by one of the most basic rules in BOW, then they don't need to be in the water period.

Are safety stops a good idea? It depends. If i'm inside the NDLs for my particular mix then a safety stop is just that. Something you do to be safer.

By turning out students that are robots (you go to this depth...do this...turn here....safety stop here....don't dare do anything different) you are turning out accidents looking for a place to happen, IMHO

You guys/gals don't have to "buy" anything. It is fact.

People are taught the proper way, I was, you were, and probably everybody else was.

The thing is that humans as a rule tend to be lazy. I am not saying we teach them them safety stops so we don't have to teach them the rest. I am saying we teach them safety stops, along with all the rest, so that if they choose to ignore the rest out of laziness then they hopefully, if nothing else, will remember the safety stop.

I am talking about all that come out for two or three dive vacations a year and that is all. They (and it is their responsibility not the instructors or anybody else) choose to filter out all the stuff THEIR mind deems as extraneous. They do tend to remember the safety stop though and that can save them from many (not all) of ther mistakes.

I am not condoning anything, I am not saying people should only be taught safety stops in leiu of proper table/computer diving and dive planning (they are taught the basics of these skills, I am also not saying that people should use their safety stop as a catch all. What I am saying is that part of the reason that safety stops are drilled into us in training is that due to human nature it might be one of the only things that the students will remember out of choice. The only thing that can be done about this is possibly screening and refusing dive instruction to certain individuals (not gonna happen) or turning dive instruction into a 4-5 night/week for 6-8 weeks course of instruction so that people could be taught all the necessary skills and drilled on them constantly so that they all become automatic (not gonna happen).

Point is that diving is a by-choice sport/hobby and as long as it is that way then basic instruction is just that basic training for people to give them just enough knowledge to adequately get themselves into trouble. If individuals want to do more beyond that then it is up to the individual since that is who is ultimately responsible for their own safety and actions.

 

[ScubaSixString]

You guys/gals don't have to "buy" anything. It is fact.

People are taught the proper way, I was, you were, and probably everybody else was.

The thing is that humans as a rule tend to be lazy. I am not saying we teach them them safety stops so we don't have to teach them the rest. I am saying we teach them safety stops, along with all the rest, so that if they choose to ignore the rest out of laziness then they hopefully, if nothing else, will remember the safety stop.

I am talking about all that come out for two or three dive vacations a year and that is all. They (and it is their responsibility not the instructors or anybody else) choose to filter out all the stuff THEIR mind deems as extraneous. They do tend to remember the safety stop though and that can save them from many (not all) of ther mistakes.

I am not condoning anything, I am not saying people should only be taught safety stops in leiu of proper table/computer diving and dive planning (they are taught the basics of these skills, I am also not saying that people should use their safety stop as a catch all. What I am saying is that part of the reason that safety stops are drilled into us in training is that due to human nature it might be one of the only things that the students will remember out of choice. The only thing that can be done about this is possibly screening and refusing dive instruction to certain individuals (not gonna happen) or turning dive instruction into a 4-5 night/week for 6-8 weeks course of instruction so that people could be taught all the necessary skills and drilled on them constantly so that they all become automatic (not gonna happen).

Point is that diving is a by-choice sport/hobby and as long as it is that way then basic instruction is just that basic training for people to give them just enough knowledge to adequately get themselves into trouble. If individuals want to do more beyond that then it is us to the individual since that is who is ultimately responsible for their own safety and actions.

I don't think anyone is saying don't teach safety stops. I know I'm not. I think the bone of contension here is with calling them "mandatory".

If a safety stop is mandatory, then really it isn't a safety stop. Its a deco stop. If, by the RDP, you can't safely ascend from depth within 3 PGs of your NDL, then you're doing a deco dive. When i was certified around 11 years ago (i know....i haven't been diving much until recently....i took a 10 year hiatus...damn PADI/marriage/real life ) I don't think the mandatory safety stop existed., or at least, I don't remember it.

 

[H2Andy]

in my OW class, i was told to do a "slow" ascent (30 fpm) and a safety stop if
required.

but this was never demonstrated or practiced. i had no clue what 30 fpm felt like.

as a result, i planned dives that did not require safey dives and zoomed up
the line upon hitting my NDL

i had no understanding WHY what i was doing wasn't the best thing to do because
i had not been TAUGHT the theory well enough and had only been given a meaningless
mantra to repeat: slow ascent, safety stop if needed.

 

[rockjock3]

I don't think anyone is saying don't teach safety stops. I know I'm not. I think the bone of contension here is with calling them "mandatory".

If a safety stop is mandatory, then really it isn't a safety stop. Its a deco stop. If, by the RDP, you can't safely ascend from depth within 3 PGs of your NDL, then you're doing a deco dive. When i was certified around 11 years ago (i know....i haven't been diving much until recently....i took a 10 year hiatus...damn PADI/marriage/real life ) I don't think the mandatory safety stop existed., or at least, I don't remember it.

I never said they were should be mandatory either. I agree that they shouldn't be taught that way, and I was never taught that way. I only believe the reason that they are pushed so hard in training is they most students will sort of assume they are mandatory, without the instructor telling them they are, and just do them automatically.

 

[ScubaSixString]

in my OW class, i was told to do a "slow" ascent (30 fpm) and a safety stop if
required.

but this was never demonstrated or practiced. i had no clue what 30 fpm felt like.

as a result, i planned dives that did not require safey dives and zoomed up
the line upon hitting my NDL

i had no understanding WHY what i was doing wasn't the best thing to do because
i had not been TAUGHT the theory well enough and had only been given a meaningless
mantra to repeat: slow ascent, safety stop if needed.

30 fpm is hard to understand. My computers scream at me if i exceed that...and i do often unless i'm on a line. it seems VERY slow.

 

[ScubaSixString]

I never said they were should be mandatory either. I agree that they shouldn't be taught that way, and I was never taught that way. I only believe the reason that they are pushed so hard in training is they most students will sort of assume they are mandatory, without the instructor telling them they are, and just do them automatically.

Perhaps a little more decompression physiology ought to be taught earlier than it is.

While i can see that some folks will take safety stops as mandatory and do them, I can just as easily see many people not understanding the importance and blowing them off.

 

[jeckyll]

Hmm

My understanding that diving within the RDP meant that you could ascend to the surfact in case of emergency without having a deco oblication. Given that this is all based on statistics and the likelyhood of getting DCI and no diving ever beeing _completely_ risk free, a 'mandatory' safety stop becomes 'optional' in certain emergency situtations (optional is really the wrong word. IMO you are basing your action on the situation and certain situations will rate the 'ignore safety stop' risk below 'ascend directly to the surface due to xxxxx' risk). I'm thinking of a diver having a medical emergency and having to be brought up without delay for instance.

If no emergency occurs then the overriding factor will be to lower the probability of DCi occuring, which means you have a 'mandatory' safety stop.

Please note, I am in no way suggesting that safety stops are not necessary, but if I had been at 100 fsw for 10 minutes for instance and my buddy seemed to have serious problems, I would ascend with him to the surface and not insist on my safety stop.

OTOH, I recently went with a diver who was new to drysuits. We discussed pre-dive that if he had buoyancy issue I would join him at the surface after making a slow ascent, including my stop (depending on light signals). Sure enough as we were coming up from 60 fsw and reached 40 he had an 'unintentional' ascent. I proceeded to make a slow ascent and join him at the surface...

Just my $0.02

Bjorn

 

[OneBrightGator]

Sure enough as we were coming up from 60 fsw and reached 40 he had an 'unintentional' ascent. I proceeded to make a slow ascent and join him at the surface

So you just watched your buddy "unintentionally" ascend from 40'?

Interesting.