Secondary Regulator... Do you use one?

[SeaJay]

Heya... SeaJay here... I know this isn't the place for introductions, (there's a specific board for that) but I'll go ahead and blow the netiquette and do it anyway.

Hi. I'm SeaJay, and I'm a scubaholic.

Been diving for years, but last month I actually got OW certified. (I know, 'dis me now. At least I was smart enough to know that I should get serious about this and get the edumacation.)

I'm in Beaufort, SC, not far from Hilton Head. I've got a boat and a couple of buddies (one gets free air from the fire department) and I'm completely hooked. Most of my diving (11 dives in the past month) has been in dark waters (vis less than a foot) but I've had a lot of fun recently at several GPS-located offshore wrecks, 5-15 nm from the shore and in ~80 feet of water. I'll talk about that another time, on the appropriate board.

By the way... This is seriously a nice board. I own two motorcycle boards and a BMW (automobile) board, and 'dis be da bomb, if you know what I mean. I plan to be here a while.

Oh, and yes, the name "SeaJay" is real... It's a nickname I've had for years, and has nothing to do with the ocean... But it sure fits here... LOL...

Okay, sorry... Don't mean to be so wordy, but I wanted to do a quick introduction and tell you how groovy this board is before asking...

I've just recently bought a whole bunch of personal gear, and am now looking into other gear, like dive computers, regs, BC's, etc... Based on what I've used and found in research, The Cobra dive computer, or it's wireless counterpart if desired, seems to be "the ticket." Ditto for the latest regs from Apeks. I can see why...

My question is this: I've seen some people using a secondary that's somewhat integrated with their BC inflate/deflate buttons... The apparent advantage is that you could get rid of the "octopus." In other words, one less hose to contend with.

However, I can see the disadvantage that when you need a secondary reg, you'd be forced to use the abbreviated version on your BC... Or when letting a buddy use your air, you'd be forced to give him your primary while you use your BC's reg.

However, the advantages, at least to me, of being able to get rid of one more hose seem really nice. I think I might be interested in this concept... Add a wireless AI computer and I'd have just two hoses coming from my first stage... One for my primary reg and one for my BC inflator/secondary reg.

Sounds cool. Yet, everyone here seems to be diving with two fully funtional regs... A complete primary and a complete secondary, on it's token longer hose.

Why is this? Can someone kick around with me the pros and cons of integrating your secondary with your inflator? Does the combination secondary/inflator get in the way due to it's larger size over a plain power inflator alone?

That said, it appears that most of my diving is going to be done within 5-15 miles offshore in salt water, in 60-100 foot depths. For those of you who have not experienced these dives, it's a must see. Great wrecks and junkyards, 85 degree water temps now, 60-70 foot vis, tons of aquatic life, and basically great dives. I'm also planning on dives in Lake Murray, where I happen to know of several B-25 bombers that crashed out there in the '40's (still yet to be claimed) and some healthy diving in Greenville and Spartanburg. These dives would be in fresh, cooler water (60 degrees in some cases at the bottom, even now) and could be much deeper (~150 to 200 feet). Yes, I plan to wait on those dives until I am trained for wreck and deco diving... I'm not there yet.

Anyone interested in going with?

What's your opinion on the inflator/secondary integration thing?

 

[SubMariner]

SeaJay, I have yet to see a dive professional (Divemaster or above) use anything but a full 2nd and octo; tech divers as well.

While there may be some discussion as to which to donate & which to have the longer hose on, in the end all seem to agree that two separate 2nd stages is preferable over the integrated units. For the very reasons you already mentioned.

In the end the extra hose is really a non-issue. Good divers streamline their gear & keep it well secured, regardless of how "complicated" it gets with multiple air sources, cameras, etc.

Just my $0.02's worth,

~SubMariner~

 

[wannabe]

I have one-- it breaths like crap at 100+ but it works, with the addition of the drysuit hose and not going AI I wanted less junk coming off my 1st stage. I have done a whole dive to prove a point (so I am pig headed)

Would I buy one again--yes.

I look at it this way, it is a piece of equipment to get you back to the surface, thats it. You shouldn't ever have a use for it if you are playing by the book so breathing really well just isn't really important to me.

Maybe Tech divers and Instructors don't use them but I am neither. Instructor/DM deals with much wider spectrum of people than I and odds of use are higher so I would go that route if I was in that situation.

 

[SPEEDSTER]

the ai, and the dm for my dm class all used integrated octo's. Couldn't believe it, brought it up to them they thought their way was better. Imagine that.

Mike

 

[MuddyFox]

Out of curiosity and off the subject... what GPS do you use to pinpoint the wrecks? Is it WAAS enabled? Patch antenna or quad helix?


Back to the subject...

I often am disappointed to see a dive buddy go the integrated secondary route. Potential failure issues aside, I'm not completely comfortable with taking someone's primary away from them should an OOA situation occur. That's also why I'm not totally sold on the DIR (easy now) method yet. Both are an open invitation to strip the primary out of your mouth when you don't expect it... something that the DIR folks assume will happen anyway.

I prefer a bright yellow octo setup on a bright yellow hose. If I could I'd wrap it in Christmas lights with and neon sign that says "PICK ME PICK ME!" I've been in two OOA situations, in both cases the OOA diver never indicated his status. He just swam up and grabbed my yellow octo. Should they have grabbed my primary, my octo was only 4 inches below my left collarbone. At least this way I have a shot at not being stripped of my primary where the integrated octo and DIR methods guarantee primary stripping. However, proper buddy selection could reduce the 'surprise' factor, but how well do we really know our buddies under duress?

Please do not take this as bashing the DIR methods. I've been doing a good deal of reading about them lately, and like what I see. However I'm having trouble warming up to the primary/secondary octo setup. It seems to me that for rec diving, the long octo method provides the best probability for survival.

 

[DuckDive]

Welcome aboard!

I am by no means an expert, and the inflator/alternate subject has been dealt with a lot (search for "air2"), but, I want to mention something that doesn't come up too often.

When I went through this, not too long ago, I realized how short my inflator hose could be if it was just an inflator - it hangs a mere few inches over my shoulder now and I like it there (I don't mind turning my head for a few seconds if I need to manually inflate the BC).

That doesn't work with an integrated one - it needs to be quite a bit longer to be in your mouth in a semi-comfortable position - so it creates more of a danglie.

I opted to find a way to reduce alternate air source dangle, which I think is easier to deal with than inflator dangle. Which, by the way, is where the backup-under-the-chin thingy comes in .

Each to his own of course... and that's just mine.

Mark.

 

[SeaJay]

But I'm a newbie, right?

So don't laugh...

My boat is a 20' runabout... My GPS is a $90 Etrex from Wal-Mart, and I have a compass for backup. I've got a depth finder, a cell phone (works to about 10 mi offshore in most conditions) and often a second boat goes with me. I check on the internet at Weather.com to make sure that conditions are right for a small boat in big water, and then I just go...

I found a list of wrecks and reefs online, complete with GPS coordinates and expected depths. So far, they're about 95% accurate, or maybe even better.

When I get to the site, which is sometimes even marked with a wreck buoy or reef buoy, I usually make a few passes at it with my GPS guiding me, noting anomolies on the bottom. Typically, it only takes about ten minutes to find something, and I anchor and dive. Simple.

Finding the B25's was harder, though... That was more of a culmination of experience, folklore, Navy and Internet information, and work with a depth finder. Even now I know that there'd be lots more to find if I could afford to purchase a $30k manetometer.

I feel silly giving you such a plain-Jane, simple answer. I wish I could just go out and do the Quad WAAS or whatever, but I'm pretty satisfied standing on the bow of the boat with a unit in my hand that's supposedly accurate to within 15 feet or so. It gets me there.

I'm with ya on the "integrated octopus" thing... (Thank you someone for teaching me what it was called...) I can see how having your buddy swim over and snag your primary would be a little... Unsafe, really. Then there's the breathability issue... And the possibility of failure...

I think what I'm going to do is take a look a little closer next time I see an integrated octo and see how much it really is saving... And if it's not much, or if it's got these huge drawbacks like everyone's saying, maybe I'll give it a rest and stick with what works.

By the way, I'm sure it's been discussed a bazillion times, but what the heck is "DIR method?"

:dunce: <-- Doin' the Quad WAAS with my unit in my hand.

 

[SeaJay]

Mark, that's just the kind of information that I was looking for. I can completely see that point...

So then I deal with secondary dangle by getting everything tucked, but keeping a traditional octopus... Then I shorten my inflator hose a good bit, and I get the best of both worlds.

Perfect!

ut:

 

[Dee]

My primary is on a 4ft hose, routed under my right arm with a swivel at the 2nd stage. I prefer under the arm to prevent snag points and it's more comfortable. I've had 3 OOA situations where I've had to supply air another diver. In the first one I had the 'regulation' octo placed in the golden triangle area we all are taught. That made no difference. The OOA diver ignored the octo and yanked my reg out of my mouth. Since I practice often the reg/Octo+ exchange it was no problem to automatically go to the Octo +, just as practicing with a regulation octo.

The other two instances were divers low on air and we aborted the dive and ascended. One of them from 90+ft. With the 4ft hose on my primary, there was room to get the diver out of my face and give them room to swim yet keep them close enough to control should the need arise. And with the swivel, the reg could be turned for a good fit with the hose coming from the left.

I've never understood the problem some have with giving up their primary. One of the skills we learn starting in OW is reg/snorkel exchange. This is no different. Having the reg yanked out of your mouth is a high probability in an emergency. The OOA diver isn't going to politely ask you for your octo or air source. They are going for the one they see working.

Maybe different training or just different comfort levels for everyone....

As a DM, the Instructors I work with have encouraged me to wear my personal gear during classes in order to expose the students to different gear configurations. Of course it goes without saying that instructions are given for the proper technique for using it should the need arise.

 

[MuddyFox]

I have no problem with donating my primary. However I have a problem with it being ripped out of my mouth. With an obvious accessible octo in place that at least reduces the chance I'll get a nasty surprise mid-breath.

On a side note, every diver should be comfortable with the regulator out of their mouth. There will come a day when it will be out voluntarily or not.