Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation

[boulderjohn]

What exactly does "technical in nature" mean? Isn't that really an artificial construct to define some set of "limits" to what the recreational diver is capable of? I don't believe in it.

Nor do I, and I am as puzzled as you about the belief that certain critical skills are for the technical realm only.

I've had people come to my seminars who are recently OW certified ... and in a few cases, not yet certified ... and they "get it". So how technical is it, really?

Again, I agree.

There's a market for this stuff. People want it. The agency who leads the way providing for that market will make out.

That's the argument that should be use to promote it ... because, ultimately, scuba training is a business. And in business, selling what people want to buy makes more sense than telling people what's available ... or what's too "technical" for them to learn.

Yes again. So how do we make them realize that?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Nor do I, and I am as puzzled as you about the belief that certain critical skills are for the technical realm only.

Again, I agree.


Yes again. So how do we make them realize that?

... send them to one of my seminars ... I give quite a few of them at PADI facilities ...

Seeing is believing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[seaducer]

Seaducer wrote
Assuming the OP was trained within the PADI system, that quote is NOT an entirely accurate statement.
The PADI OW cert says a graduate is qualified to plan and execute an independent dive
This is an important distinction and, pretty clearly, was NOT a dive the OP had "training and/or experience" in doing. Thus the OP rationally, and properly, relied on the "Professional guide" to fill the holes in the OP's "training and/or experience."

That qualifier, I am not really sure what it means. I am not saying this to be an ass, but I was trained to dive in a swimming pool, did a few short checkouts in a 7mm farmer john in 50 degree water and 5 feet of vis. I guess my course in the early 90s was tailored for warm water diving, being in NJ there was a lot of local diving anecdotes thrown in.

But I felt I was given the tools to dive anywhere with another buddy. Obviously not under ice, in a cave etc. I did do several wreck dives in 70-80 feet of cold dark current laden water, although I did take AOW straight away.

I don't think it is a stretch to expect OW graduates to be able to dive to OW limits safely, I think that is what they are paying for.

But I will qualify all the above, I think 90% of the responsibility of education falls on the student.

It is my responsibility to learn. Just because it is written or told to me does not mean I am paying attention or giving the information proper emphasis. I am sure a measurable percentage of incidents involving ignorance of safe diving practices are because the diver failed to really learn what he/she was taught. It is easy to regurgitate answers for a test, harder to retain and apply that knowledge in real life.

Sure there are some instructors out there who just are no good at conveying knowledge, but I wonder how many students fork over the $200 or however much it is these days and figure they are entitled to the card, since they paid for it, and proceed to learn just enough to pass and then do what they want.

Probably a good thing Sea Hunt is no longer in syndication...

 

[TexasKaren68]

For example, my AOW students do not go on their deep dive without first learning how to calculate their consumption rate, and how to base a dive plan on how much gas they have available. It's not "technical", it's simple arithmetic ... something anyone who's gone past about the fourth grade should be able to do. I've been teaching that way now for seven years, and yet to have a student who couldn't do it ... most rather easily...

As noted earlier, I was dumbfounded by the response the first time I offered to send my article to anyone on SB who wanted it. I couldn't keep up with all the requests. At the time I didn't have a website, so I asked a friend to put it on his so I could send people there.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I printed out your article last night, and will read (and study) it before my first deep dive. It's sitting right on top of my PADI Adventure Dive Manual, so before my AOW dives I have five chapters, and one Gas Mgmt. article to read :cool2:

Math was my best subject in school so hopefully I'll "get it"

 

[TSandM]

Karen, you are so ahead of the curve . . . I hope I get to dive with you someday.

 

[The Chairman]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Thread hijack and responses have been deleted. Please stay on topic, thanks.

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[TexasKaren68]

Please understand I'm not picking on you TexasKaren68, I'm picking on ScubaBoard. There are a lot of people who read internet forums and then feel like they know more than people who don't read internet forums; but like anything you read on the internet, how valid is it?

Well, I'm sure it'll take a while to figure out the validity of certain posts, but it's become pretty obvious that certain posters are respected on here, and others not so much. If I see a post by the ones who are respected and seem to know their stuff, then I'm going to take those more seriously than posts from the diver who wanted to know if it was OK to never service his gear

Depending on the boat one dives from, the guide may control the max time of the dive; in that situation some divers are not in control of how long they stay under.

True, if the guide is cutting the dive shorter and that's fine. More conservative is fine. However, unless the guide is physically restraining you when you're low on air. You ascend no matter what - you can't stay under water with no air and live. If you get to the surface and you're in the middle of nowhere with no boat in sight, well at least you're breathing and hopefully armed with signaling devices if you were on a boat dive in current.

Depending on the dive plan, if you are past a certain point in some dives, it very well may be a significant problem to cut the dive short.

Do you mean if you're already in a low air situation, or something else?

Your OW training dives were "trust me dives" but like most "trust me dives" the risk of a "trust me dive" being deadly is likely less than the risk of the previously mentioned undeserved DCS being deadly.

I certainly trusted my instructor, but I also checked my air frequently without being asked, and also, my OW dives were so shallow that I could have bolted for the surface at any time with a CESA and swam the 20 feet to the river's edge. The deepest I went on dives 1 and 2 (Cozumel) was 27 feet and most of the time was actually spent at around 12 feet. The rest of my OW dives were in a Texas river where I was mostly at around 7 feet, and at 20 feet for about 5 or 10 minutes. This is one reason I'm looking forward to taking more classes, in deeper water (40-60 feet) so I can get that experience as soon as possible. I don't think repeated dives in the Comal River are going to do much except get me really good at drift diving in 7 feet of water. At some point I'm going to complete the deep diver PADI specialty, but not because I have a great desire for deep dives. I just want to be prepared in case of...? I just want to be prepared for a lot of different possibilities.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Depending on the dive plan, if you are past a certain point in some dives, it very well may be a significant problem to cut the dive short.

What could possibly be more significant than running out of air?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[seaducer]

What could possibly be more significant than running out of air?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

How about running out of hair gel?

 

[Cave Diver]

I personally would really like to hear about that discussion Bubbletrubble if you don't mind. It sounds like you had a great instructor.

For those of you who asked about it, both here and privately, the What If? series has been created. Please refer to the main sticky for links to the individual threads.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...what-do-when-things-go-wrong.html#post5805200